2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
Jolle
Jolle
133
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:12 pm
Xwang wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:27 pm
I would say that you should go back to when the first of Vettel's car wheel has been back on the track and you will see that Hamilton was behind)
He was behind, going much faster and on the racing line. If he could turn tighter at that moment, then he'd go quicker through the corner normally because he'd have had grip to spare. So, no, he couldn't at that moment switch hard left to go inside Vettel. He was committed to goung on the racing line. Vettel deliberately drove his car across the track to block Hamilton. Thus he got a penalty.
exactly.

blocking/forcing a fellow driver off track while you are very compromised (because of that you missed a part of the track or other reasons) is a nasty way of driving. Nothing to do with "let them race".

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
555
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

Post

Vettel could have left some space and scared Hamilton in to braking. He didn't, he had to drive all the way across the track. That was his mistake. Vettel messed up because his race craft isn't clever enough to be hard but stay in the rules. He went just too far and got punished. You'll never accept that but that's your problem because life has moved on. You should too.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

User avatar
Phil
66
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:22 pm

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

Post

To be fair, I think "scaring drivers" should be just as punishable by intent. It's dangerous and IMO has nothing to do with racing.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
555
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

Post

Phil wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:33 pm
To be fair, I think "scaring drivers" should be just as punishable by intent. It's dangerous and IMO has nothing to do with racing.
By scaring, I mean give him a moment's doubt, not make him scream in to his helmet. Just make him hesitate and that takes the advantage away from him. That's racing.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Jolle
Jolle
133
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

Post

Xwang wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:19 pm
dans79 wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:58 pm
Xwang wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:56 pm
I'll repeat for you

go back to some moment before

see images 9 and 13 of https://sport.sky.it/formula1/fotogalle ... da.html#14
(moreover as a car is deemed to be outside the track if all wheels are not between the white lines I would say that you should go back to when the first of Vettel's car wheel has been back on the track and you will see that Hamilton was behind)
umm, none of that matters! If a car is alongside at any point, then pushing them off the track is against the letter of the law!
It matters because since Vettel had already rejoined ahead of Hamilton, he had the right to defend the position.
But the "Mercedes Assisting FIA" has decided otherwise.
It is with the speed difference because he rejoined.
Plus, what is it... or he couldn’t help himself and slid across the track on the racing line blocking/forcing Hamilton off the track by accident or...
He made a deliberate move to block someone who was in racing speed, on the racing line while he just rejoined the track and not up to speed and off the racing line.

roon
roon
412
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:12 pm
Xwang wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:27 pm
I would say that you should go back to when the first of Vettel's car wheel has been back on the track and you will see that Hamilton was behind)
He was behind, going much faster and on the racing line. If he could turn tighter at that moment, then he'd go quicker through the corner normally because he'd have had grip to spare. So, no, he couldn't at that moment switch hard left to go inside Vettel. He was committed to goung on the racing line. Vettel deliberately drove his car across the track to block Hamilton. Thus he got a penalty.
Because, as we all know, a slower car must always give up its position regardless of blue flags. That's why Lewis politely allowed Verstappen by in Monaco, giving the gentle Dutchman his first Monaco victory.

We should consider that diving into a closing gap between a car, oscillating in yaw across 2/3 of the track after grass, and a wall, was perhaps not the only nor best decision Lew could have made.

Watch the video from 1:10 - 1:14. There are distinct yaw moments, pivoting around the center of the car, at approx 1:11 and 1:13. Note the second event spans more than half the width of the track surface.

https://youtu.be/gqhX-ZzPhzo
Last edited by roon on Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
NathanOlder
48
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:05 am
Location: Kent

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

Post

Xwang wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:19 pm
dans79 wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:58 pm
Xwang wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:56 pm
I'll repeat for you

go back to some moment before

see images 9 and 13 of https://sport.sky.it/formula1/fotogalle ... da.html#14
(moreover as a car is deemed to be outside the track if all wheels are not between the white lines I would say that you should go back to when the first of Vettel's car wheel has been back on the track and you will see that Hamilton was behind)
umm, none of that matters! If a car is alongside at any point, then pushing them off the track is against the letter of the law!
It matters because since Vettel had already rejoined ahead of Hamilton, he had the right to defend the position.
But the "Mercedes Assisting FIA" has decided otherwise.
#-o x 1000
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0
King George has arrived.

New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS5 & PC

User avatar
NathanOlder
48
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:05 am
Location: Kent

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

Post

I think roon and Xwang are just on a wind up still. Theres no way anyone can be that blind
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0
King George has arrived.

New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS5 & PC

roon
roon
412
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

Post

NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:43 pm
I think roon and Xwang are just on a wind up still. Theres no way anyone can be that blind
I don't actually disagree with parts of the ruling. I do consistently find flaws in the logic presented by the three main parties. When I was making cases for Hamilton and Merc and the stewards a few pages back, where was your stammering, Nate? Where were your witless retorts? I was safely within your prejudices then, but only incidentally.

User avatar
dans79
246
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

Post

roon wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:50 pm
I don't actually disagree with parts of the ruling. I do consistently find flaws in the logic presented by the three main parties. When I was making cases for Hamilton and Merc and the stewards a few pages back, where was your stammering, Nate? Where were your witless retorts? I was safely within your prejudices then, but only incidentally.
Trolling again I see!
183 103 103 7

User avatar
Phil
66
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:22 pm

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:38 pm
Phil wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:33 pm
To be fair, I think "scaring drivers" should be just as punishable by intent. It's dangerous and IMO has nothing to do with racing.
By scaring, I mean give him a moment's doubt, not make him scream in to his helmet. Just make him hesitate and that takes the advantage away from him. That's racing.
I know how you meant it. The subtle twitch. I don't like it and I think it should be punishable, because it implies intent and when the overtaking car has a high enough speed differential, can lead to very dangerous situations. I don't mind it if a driver turns in and then realizes that a car is coming up on the inside and then to backs out of it. But if there is intent to do imply doing a 'blocking maneuver', to me that is dirty racing and is almost as bad as the block itself. There's no skill involved.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

User avatar
TAG
20
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:18 pm
Location: in a good place

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

Post

roon wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:50 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:43 pm
I think roon and Xwang are just on a wind up still. Theres no way anyone can be that blind
I don't actually disagree with parts of the ruling. I do consistently find flaws in the logic presented by the three main parties. When I was making cases for Hamilton and Merc and the stewards a few pages back, where was your stammering, Nate? Where were your witless retorts? I was safely within your prejudices then, but only incidentally.
It's no longer amusing, I'm now genuinely concerned for your well being. It's just a sport, it's not worth the stress to your mental health.
माकडाच्या हाती कोलीत

User avatar
NathanOlder
48
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:05 am
Location: Kent

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

Post

roon wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:50 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:43 pm
I think roon and Xwang are just on a wind up still. Theres no way anyone can be that blind
I don't actually disagree with parts of the ruling. I do consistently find flaws in the logic presented by the three main parties. When I was making cases for Hamilton and Merc and the stewards a few pages back, where was your stammering, Nate? Where were your witless retorts? I was safely within your prejudices then, but only incidentally.
Look rooney boy, I'm not going to answer everything you say, and I'm not going to pat you on the back every time you say something I agree with however much you clearly want that. I just find it hard to not comment when someone repeats the BS comment like some are in here.
GoLandoGo
Lewis v2.0
King George has arrived.

New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS5 & PC

roon
roon
412
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

Post

dans79, NO, TAG: there is validity to both sides, and both sides are at times making flawed arguments. It isn't difficult to consider. Jolyon and Chandok both raised good points. This partly explains the level of controversy.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
555
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: 2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

Post

roon wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 5:40 pm

We should consider that diving into a closing gap between a car, oscillating in yaw across 2/3 of the track after grass, and a wall, was perhaps not the only nor best decision Lew could have made.

Hamilton was committed to the corner when Vettel was off track. If, at any point, Hamilton was required to act to avoid a collision during Vettel's rejoin, it's a penalty to Vettel. That's the rule. Argue the rule, not the penalty.

In Monaco, the incident was caused by Max's dive bomb attempt. I have no problem with his attempt, although if he had caused a problem for Hamilton (spin, puncture etc) he would have reserved a penalty. Hamilton was ahead, under control and he has the right to take his line. Vettel left the track and deliberately crowded Hamilton. That's an offence.

Now, one might argue the rule is wrong, but the penalty is in line with the rule and thus entirely justified.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"