2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Phil
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Andres125sx wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:20 pm
Sorry but that´s not fair. With two cars in parallel, none can go from edge to edge. I really am struggling to understand how someone with track experience as yourself can continue ignoring such a basic rule to justify Max :wtf:
There's precedence for the car on the inside having a certain "right" to the corner and his racing line, however unfair that may seem to you. Leclerc conceded that line himself when he chose to stay on the outside and invite Max to go there. If he hadn't wanted that, he should have driven defensively by going there and covering it before Max stuck his nose there.

My post was to explain why that is and why following a car parallel but on the outside is a risky and vulnerable position to be in. As per the rules, deliberate crowding is not allowed. If you simply understeer or by the trajectory you committed yourself to leads towards the outside, it's not deliberate. Proving if Max had margin and could have avoided going that far out to the edge of the track on corner exit is difficult, but under the premise 'innocent until proven guilty', I don't see deliberate crowding there. And it doesn't negate that, again, Leclerc put himself into that vulnerable position.

We can go on and on in circles here, but it really doesn't change the fact that Leclerc could have simply defended better to cover off that eventuality.
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izzy
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Phil wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:27 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:20 pm
Sorry but that´s not fair. With two cars in parallel, none can go from edge to edge. I really am struggling to understand how someone with track experience as yourself can continue ignoring such a basic rule to justify Max :wtf:
There's precedence for the car on the inside having a certain "right" to the corner and his racing line, however unfair that may seem to you. Leclerc conceded that line himself when he chose to stay on the outside and invite Max to go there. If he hadn't wanted that, he should have driven defensively by going there and covering it before Max stuck his nose there.

My post was to explain why that is and why following a car parallel but on the outside is a risky and vulnerable position to be in. As per the rules, deliberate crowding is not allowed. If you simply understeer or by the trajectory you committed yourself to leads towards the outside, it's not deliberate. Proving if Max had margin and could have avoided going that far out to the edge of the track on corner exit is difficult, but under the premise 'innocent until proven guilty', I don't see deliberate crowding there. And it doesn't negate that, again, Leclerc put himself into that vulnerable position.

We can go on and on in circles here, but it really doesn't change the fact that Leclerc could have simply defended better to cover off that eventuality.
in circuit racing, drivers pass round the outside, it happens all the time and if anything it's Max's speciality. They can do this because the outside line has more grip and the line has a larger radius and that means more speed.

That's what would've happened to Charles, if he'd gone to the inside. He've had to brake earlier and have a lower apex speed and exit speed and Max would've passed him round the outside.

It didn't happen to Max this time because he didn't apex at all, didn't brake or steer for the apex he went straight on for about 5 metres so on the exit he was still alongside Charles.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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I'm willing to guess that if the incident had been Charles overtaking Max on the inside, and running his line in the same way, there wouldn't be this clamour.

It's amusing to see some of the "this isn't racing" comments and we also see people generally bemoaning the lack of racing in F1.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

izzy
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:41 pm
I'm willing to guess that if the incident had been Charles overtaking Max on the inside, and running his line in the same way, there wouldn't be this clamour.

It's amusing to see some of the "this isn't racing" comments and we also see people generally bemoaning the lack of racing in F1.
everyone would've been surprised if Charles had done it!

Max would've been saying he was freaking going to freaking get him and Helmut would've been saying there must be a penalty it's not fair

it depends what we call racing doesn't it, but anyway it meant we had less racing not more. we had that much racing because of the tyres

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Pyrone89
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Agreed most of the hurt on forums seem to come because of the driver doing it as opposed to the action itself which we have seen countless times in history without problems. Just imagine if there had been forums in the Senna Prost days. :lol:
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Jolle
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Pyrone89 wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:32 pm
Agreed most of the hurt on forums seem to come because of the driver doing it as opposed to the action itself which we have seen countless times in history without problems. Just imagine if there had been forums in the Senna Prost days. :lol:
the whole 94 season would have broken the internet.... deaths, planks, black flags, holes in air boxes, pit lane fires, traction control controversy, cheating, disqualifications and finally the last race of the season....

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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Pyrone89 wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:32 pm
Just imagine if there had been forums in the Senna Prost days. :lol:
Didn't they have IRC wars back in those days?

I'm pretty sure there's a thread on Autosport's Nostalgia forum with some chat logs from the late 80s early 90s.

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henry
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:41 pm
I'm willing to guess that if the incident had been Charles overtaking Max on the inside, and running his line in the same way, there wouldn't be this clamour.

It's amusing to see some of the "this isn't racing" comments and we also see people generally bemoaning the lack of racing in F1.
There was racing on the previous lap and up to corner 3 on lap 69. Had Max not run Charles off the road we would have continued to see racing for the rest of the lap and further. So people who want racing are rightly dischuffed every time the racing is curtailed by the bargers.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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henry wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:08 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:41 pm
I'm willing to guess that if the incident had been Charles overtaking Max on the inside, and running his line in the same way, there wouldn't be this clamour.

It's amusing to see some of the "this isn't racing" comments and we also see people generally bemoaning the lack of racing in F1.
There was racing on the previous lap and up to corner 3 on lap 69. Had Max not run Charles off the road we would have continued to see racing for the rest of the lap and further. So people who want racing are rightly dischuffed every time the racing is curtailed by the bargers.
Sorry, but I think that Max didn't do anything wrong. He does plenty of stuff wrong, but this time it was text book "take the inside line and dictate the corner". Charles made two mistakes - he left room on the inside because it worked before, and then he tried to muscle it out on the outside rather than using the cut back technique. The cut back would have given him the inside line in to the next corner. I guess he got suckered by the previous lap and expected it to play out the same way the next time. Max, however, changed his approach which left Charles high and dry. Max out drove Charles pure and simple. That's why he deserved the win in my opinion.
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roon
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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henry wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:08 pm
...people who want racing are rightly dischuffed every time the racing is curtailed by the bargers.
It's how they do things in Holland.

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Jolle
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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roon wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:44 pm
henry wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:08 pm
...people who want racing are rightly dischuffed every time the racing is curtailed by the bargers.
It's how they do things in Holland.

https://i.imgur.com/HwmYJai.gif
oi! those were those pesky Americans not used to our lovely canal streets!

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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DutchDopey wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:44 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:03 pm
No. He´s not alone in the track. Going edge to edge is always faster, but if that´s enough to claim a line, then every single overtaking attempt will finish with a car in a wall or a gravel trap
I don’t understand what argument you try to make that he isn’t entitled to the racing line ?
It´s easy, the racing line cannot be used always, only if there´s no car at it yet

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Andres125sx
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Phil wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 7:27 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:20 pm
Sorry but that´s not fair. With two cars in parallel, none can go from edge to edge. I really am struggling to understand how someone with track experience as yourself can continue ignoring such a basic rule to justify Max :wtf:
There's precedence for the car on the inside having a certain "right" to the corner and his racing line, however unfair that may seem to you. Leclerc conceded that line himself when he chose to stay on the outside and invite Max to go there. If he hadn't wanted that, he should have driven defensively by going there and covering it before Max stuck his nose there.

My post was to explain why that is and why following a car parallel but on the outside is a risky and vulnerable position to be in. As per the rules, deliberate crowding is not allowed. If you simply understeer or by the trajectory you committed yourself to leads towards the outside, it's not deliberate. Proving if Max had margin and could have avoided going that far out to the edge of the track on corner exit is difficult, but under the premise 'innocent until proven guilty', I don't see deliberate crowding there. And it doesn't negate that, again, Leclerc put himself into that vulnerable position.

We can go on and on in circles here, but it really doesn't change the fact that Leclerc could have simply defended better to cover off that eventuality.

Yes, he could have defended much better, agree but, where did you read not defending aggresively at the braking point means you lose the right to use the racing line you´re in and other drivers are allowed to push you out of it?

BTW, Charles was NOT following any car at the outside as you stated, for the whole braking he´s clearly in front of Max.

And actually, I see deliberate crowding. Did you watch Max onboard? He deliberatedly straighten the wheel when applying throttle, wich is the reason for the contact. What btw refute your defense of Max arguing once he´s into the corner he can´t avoid going long. It would have been as easy as waiting a bit more before applying throttle, but then he would have not completed the overtake, same as previous lap, so he decidedto apply throttle at that point, pushing Lecrerc out of track


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Andres125sx
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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henry wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 10:08 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:41 pm
I'm willing to guess that if the incident had been Charles overtaking Max on the inside, and running his line in the same way, there wouldn't be this clamour.

It's amusing to see some of the "this isn't racing" comments and we also see people generally bemoaning the lack of racing in F1.
There was racing on the previous lap and up to corner 3 on lap 69. Had Max not run Charles off the road we would have continued to see racing for the rest of the lap and further. So people who want racing are rightly dischuffed every time the racing is curtailed by the bargers.
This!!

DutchDopey
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Re: 2019 [R09] Austrian Grand Prix, Spielberg, 28-30 June

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Andres125sx wrote:
Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:40 am
DutchDopey wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 5:44 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 4:03 pm
No. He´s not alone in the track. Going edge to edge is always faster, but if that´s enough to claim a line, then every single overtaking attempt will finish with a car in a wall or a gravel trap
I don’t understand what argument you try to make that he isn’t entitled to the racing line ?
It´s easy, the racing line cannot be used always, only if there´s no car at it yet
There was no other car on the racing line he took and was committed to. There was another car trying to get on that racing line.