2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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carisi2k
31
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:26 pm

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by carisi2k » Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:53 am

bill shoe wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:13 am

Ha! I checked and we're both off. The FIA thinks the 2018 season had 21 races with qualy results being Max 15-6 Daniel. Let's agree: Over the course of the season Max was quicker but Daniel was quick enough to keep him honest.

Back to the big-picture-- Merc had two superb drivers in Lewis and Rosberg, and still has a pair almost as good with Lewis and Botas. Ferrari admittedly has a bit of a #1 and #2 driver system, but they still fill seat #2 with top-shelf talent (Raikkonen, LeClerc) that belongs with one of the three winning teams on the grid. In contrast, RB has filled their #2 seat with Gasly, who's a weak and arguably silly choice for a seat in one of the three winning teams on the grid.

You and I could both easily rattle off several names on the grid who are better than Gasly, and hell we could also name 1 or 2 unemployed F1 drivers who are better. So why is RB unable or unwilling to put one of those better talents in their car?
Daniels numbers are skewed somewhat because right from the start of the year the Renault was unreliable but yes Max was faster although I still think there was some team trickery in favouring max.

The other driver I think they are waiting for is Estaban Ocon. Once he is free of Mercedes that is the driver they want to be team mate to max.

epo
3
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:57 pm

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by epo » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:29 am

carisi2k wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:53 am
bill shoe wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:13 am

Ha! I checked and we're both off. The FIA thinks the 2018 season had 21 races with qualy results being Max 15-6 Daniel. Let's agree: Over the course of the season Max was quicker but Daniel was quick enough to keep him honest.

Back to the big-picture-- Merc had two superb drivers in Lewis and Rosberg, and still has a pair almost as good with Lewis and Botas. Ferrari admittedly has a bit of a #1 and #2 driver system, but they still fill seat #2 with top-shelf talent (Raikkonen, LeClerc) that belongs with one of the three winning teams on the grid. In contrast, RB has filled their #2 seat with Gasly, who's a weak and arguably silly choice for a seat in one of the three winning teams on the grid.

You and I could both easily rattle off several names on the grid who are better than Gasly, and hell we could also name 1 or 2 unemployed F1 drivers who are better. So why is RB unable or unwilling to put one of those better talents in their car?
Daniels numbers are skewed somewhat because right from the start of the year the Renault was unreliable but yes Max was faster although I still think there was some team trickery in favouring max.

The other driver I think they are waiting for is Estaban Ocon. Once he is free of Mercedes that is the driver they want to be team mate to max.
If you think there was some kind of team trickery in favour of max, then picking Ocon wouldn't make sense, now would it?

Datco
5
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:16 am

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Datco » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:13 am

bill shoe wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:13 am
Sieper wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:30 pm
bill shoe wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:35 pm
You could also read it as Marko making excuses for why they lost the only driver who could roughly keep up with Max (Riccardo out-quailed Max 1/3 of the time in 2018). Easier for Marko to pick apart Gasly's driving than to pick apart RB's inability to keep a pair of top-level drivers like Mercedes.
1/3 of the time you say. 5 qualy wins in 20 races. 1/4 that is. Well that is just grand. And If you drill into those 5 times Max was 2 times not even participating in Q3 and the Kimi after spin tow in Baku was a godsend to Ricci.

Red Bull

Final score: Max Verstappen 15-5 Daniel Ricciardo
Average gap: -0.145 for Verstappen

A surprise head-to-head score? Yes. A thoroughly impressive season from Verstappen? Absolutely.

Ricciardo consistently had no match for Verstappen on a Saturday, although the Australian did notch Red Bull's only two pole positions of the year.
Ha! I checked and we're both off. The FIA thinks the 2018 season had 21 races with qualy results being Max 15-6 Daniel. Let's agree: Over the course of the season Max was quicker but Daniel was quick enough to keep him honest.

Back to the big-picture-- Merc had two superb drivers in Lewis and Rosberg, and still has a pair almost as good with Lewis and Botas. Ferrari admittedly has a bit of a #1 and #2 driver system, but they still fill seat #2 with top-shelf talent (Raikkonen, LeClerc) that belongs with one of the three winning teams on the grid. In contrast, RB has filled their #2 seat with Gasly, who's a weak and arguably silly choice for a seat in one of the three winning teams on the grid.

You and I could both easily rattle off several names on the grid who are better than Gasly, and hell we could also name 1 or 2 unemployed F1 drivers who are better. So why is RB unable or unwilling to put one of those better talents in their car?
It's been the RBR way since Webber and Coulthard. They bring young talent into F1 and into F1 and then their A team. They brought us Vettel, Ricciardo, Max,Sainz. More than any team in recent times. If you don't take a chance you will never know. Most people thought taking Ricciardo to their A team was RBR giving Vettel free rein. Ricciardo was good at STR but not great. Yet look how that turned out. On one hand people say RBR is ruthless to their young drivers and on the other you say they must take outside their pool.
Having said that, if they don't replace Gasly with Kvyat, they may very well taking someone from outside their programme as the current pool is inexperienced.

Sieper
69
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Sieper » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:52 am

bill shoe wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:13 am
Sieper wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:30 pm
bill shoe wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:35 pm
You could also read it as Marko making excuses for why they lost the only driver who could roughly keep up with Max (Riccardo out-quailed Max 1/3 of the time in 2018). Easier for Marko to pick apart Gasly's driving than to pick apart RB's inability to keep a pair of top-level drivers like Mercedes.
1/3 of the time you say. 5 qualy wins in 20 races. 1/4 that is. Well that is just grand. And If you drill into those 5 times Max was 2 times not even participating in Q3 and the Kimi after spin tow in Baku was a godsend to Ricci.

Red Bull

Final score: Max Verstappen 15-5 Daniel Ricciardo
Average gap: -0.145 for Verstappen

A surprise head-to-head score? Yes. A thoroughly impressive season from Verstappen? Absolutely.

Ricciardo consistently had no match for Verstappen on a Saturday, although the Australian did notch Red Bull's only two pole positions of the year.
Ha! I checked and we're both off. The FIA thinks the 2018 season had 21 races with qualy results being Max 15-6 Daniel. Let's agree: Over the course of the season Max was quicker but Daniel was quick enough to keep him honest.
Yes, I'll certainly agree to that, within .2 of a second is fully acceptable and for sure Daniel kept the pressure on. I have never once said Daniel is not a good driver, it is just I feel he was comfortably beat (weird that that quote (I was quoting a website on post 2018 result) actually got it wrong with 15-5 (and me not noticing that). should have included a link.
Back to the big-picture-- Merc had two superb drivers in Lewis and Rosberg, and still has a pair almost as good with Lewis and Botas. Ferrari admittedly has a bit of a #1 and #2 driver system, but they still fill seat #2 with top-shelf talent (Raikkonen, LeClerc) that belongs with one of the three winning teams on the grid. In contrast, RB has filled their #2 seat with Gasly, who's a weak and arguably silly choice for a seat in one of the three winning teams on the grid.
I think they possibly overestimated Gasly's results (based on him beating Hartley and coming away with some nice race results (a bit lucky imho)) in 2018 and possibly Gasly has also been underperforming so far? He put himself under quite some pressure (I remember some quotes that sounded quite confident (as you should be of course) and right at the start the pressure was on. In a big way.
You and I could both easily rattle off several names on the grid who are better than Gasly, and hell we could also name 1 or 2 unemployed F1 drivers who are better. So why is RB unable or unwilling to put one of those better talents in their car?
Again I agree that there are quite a lot of choices that could be better (as it turned out). maybe they don't want to admit they made a wrong choice that quickly. Maybe they want to give Gasly a fair chance (sacking now means end of F1 career?) And possibly they want to keep the own junior program alive (by not going for any of the available guys). The most hot opportunities also have not made it easy for themselves to sit next to Max or with a Honda behind them. I even think that at this point both Kvyat and Albon would do a better job, but then again. Preseason I actually thought that at least the qualy battle between Gasly and Verstappen would be tight. Preseason I understood the choice it has just turned out to be disappointing thus far (and to be honoust, likey it is on the verge of too late already nor even likely ever going to change).

originally made a mess with quoting but since received some help (thanks guys) and now it is better!
Last edited by Sieper on Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bill
-5
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:28 am

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Bill » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:52 am

Hatley was doing better than Gasly towards season end last year but Str brass covered it up by claiming his floor was damaged

Bill
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Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:28 am

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Bill » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:53 am

Hatley was doing better than Gasly towards season end last year but Str brass covered it up by claiming his floor was damaged

ispano6
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Location: my armchair

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by ispano6 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:05 pm

carisi2k wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:53 am
bill shoe wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:13 am

Ha! I checked and we're both off. The FIA thinks the 2018 season had 21 races with qualy results being Max 15-6 Daniel. Let's agree: Over the course of the season Max was quicker but Daniel was quick enough to keep him honest.

Back to the big-picture-- Merc had two superb drivers in Lewis and Rosberg, and still has a pair almost as good with Lewis and Botas. Ferrari admittedly has a bit of a #1 and #2 driver system, but they still fill seat #2 with top-shelf talent (Raikkonen, LeClerc) that belongs with one of the three winning teams on the grid. In contrast, RB has filled their #2 seat with Gasly, who's a weak and arguably silly choice for a seat in one of the three winning teams on the grid.

You and I could both easily rattle off several names on the grid who are better than Gasly, and hell we could also name 1 or 2 unemployed F1 drivers who are better. So why is RB unable or unwilling to put one of those better talents in their car?
Daniels numbers are skewed somewhat because right from the start of the year the Renault was unreliable but yes Max was faster although I still think there was some team trickery in favouring max.

The other driver I think they are waiting for is Estaban Ocon. Once he is free of Mercedes that is the driver they want to be team mate to max.
Ocon is Mercedes and Renault's problem. No way Ocon will be allowed to teammate Max after what he did to Max in Brazil.

holeindalip
5
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Location: USA

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by holeindalip » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:22 pm

[/quote]

Ocon is Mercedes and Renault's problem. No way Ocon will be allowed to teammate Max after what he did to Max in Brazil.
[/quote]

I think max did that to himself rather than ocon doing it to max.... but I guess we all see things differently

Marti_EF3
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Location: Spain

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Marti_EF3 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:35 pm

I don't want Ocon in RBR. Better to go with Kvyat or Albon. Why look outside??

Pyrone89
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Joined: Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:44 pm

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Pyrone89 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:31 pm

holeindalip wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:22 pm
Ocon is Mercedes and Renault's problem. No way Ocon will be allowed to teammate Max after what he did to Max in Brazil.
[/quote]

I think max did that to himself rather than ocon doing it to max.... but I guess we all see things differently
[/quote]
Not sure if you are taking the p or are serious. You do remember he was a lapped car right? right?
Different rules apply for unlapping than for normal overtakes and even for a normal overtake a pretty strong case can be made he was being a mad men, let alone a UNLAPPING

GhostF1
154
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 3:11 am

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by GhostF1 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:56 pm

Pyrone89 wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:31 pm
holeindalip wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:22 pm
Ocon is Mercedes and Renault's problem. No way Ocon will be allowed to teammate Max after what he did to Max in Brazil.
I think max did that to himself rather than ocon doing it to max.... but I guess we all see things differently
[/quote]
Not sure if you are taking the p or are serious. You do remember he was a lapped car right? right?
Different rules apply for unlapping than for normal overtakes and even for a normal overtake a pretty strong case can be made he was being a mad men, let alone a UNLAPPING
[/quote]

And cue all the conspiracies that came up afterwards that he was forcing Verstappen into an error to assist Mercedes. I don't think it was suggested it was premeditated, but in the moment... I mean, he is standing in a certain garage of a certain team who clinched the constructors title that weekend because of it.

ispano6
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Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:56 pm
Location: my armchair

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by ispano6 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:13 am

Daniil was pretty quick when he was at Red Bull and really only got demoted for being too quick and a little hard on the touch when it came to late braking. He seemed to be able to handle the Red Bull chassis although he did have a few moments. Going back to Toro Rosso was always going to be hard but given a good car has the potential to deliver some good races.
Verstappen’s victory in Austria was the 25th podium of his F1 career. It’s some way off Michael Schumacher’s record of 155 – but when you consider who has had the most podiums in F1 aged 21 or under, Verstappen leads the way comfortably. His nearest challenger is Charles Leclerc – on four. Sebastian Vettel and Fernando Alonso had three, while Daniil Kvyat had two and seven other drivers achieved one. It’s an extraordinary performance.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... aStFk.html

holeindalip
5
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Location: USA

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by holeindalip » Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:16 am

Did max have to pass ocon to win that race? No, did he have to pass ocon that corner, that lap? No.... so as an intelligent racer he should have just let ocon go and pick a better opportunity to get the job done. I don’t know him personally but he comes off as arrogant and entitled ( dont take this as driver bashing) the whole situation with him pushing ocon in the weigh bridge area was a disgrace. I’m far from a verstappen fan but, I will say he has looked much improved this year and more mature And I’m sure he will have many more wins come his way with his improved attitude And maturity on track. With his old driving antics he was very much looking like a one hit wonder👍👍👍. Let’s get back on topic...

McMika98
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by McMika98 » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:26 am

Albon or Kvyat is getting that seat and it might be this year than next year. Why is Ocon even in the discussion? He has zero chance. Albon has been in the Milton Keynes simulator from last week. If he is pulling fast laptimes than a certain Marko and Horner wont hesitate to do a mid year switch.

etusch
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by etusch » Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:48 am

McMika98 wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:26 am
Albon or Kvyat is getting that seat and it might be this year than next year. Why is Ocon even in the discussion? He has zero chance. Albon has been in the Milton Keynes simulator from last week. If he is pulling fast laptimes than a certain Marko and Horner wont hesitate to do a mid year switch.
I don't know how affect it has on decision but Albon comes from Redbull drink formula founders country and it is what made Mateschitz so rich. (I don't know if Chaleo Yoovidhya is share holder still )