2019 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 12-14

[TAG]

I've been a fan of Vettel for years, still I can see that his errors in a sense since at least 2017 onward (maybe even earlier tbh) have been mainly on him. Like you mentioned the fiasco in Singapore 2017 taking out Verstappen/Kimi/et al at the start, all those weird moments at any time when he was near another driver almost guaranteed contact and a recovery drive, to say nothing of Hockenheim last year and Canada this year- too many unforced errors.

Don't know why I keep waiting for his form to improve. Yesterday's incident with Verstappen was yet another one of those unforced errors...

Still able to enjoy seeing Verstappen mature/grow as a racer over the last few years, Hamilton finding a home for his dominance (McLaren wasn't for sure), LeClerc coming to grips with/overcoming* Ferrari's politics/form, and so on down the grid.

TL:DR Rose tinted glasses aren't worn by every Ferrari fan when it comes to how the drivers perform.

This is truly an exceptional post. Being a fan should not preclude someone from being objective. Unfortunately there's often more passion than objectivity when it come to both Vettel and Ferrari. BTW the bolded part is the most concise description I've ever read about the McLaren falling out and their subsequent implosion.

I've kind of pondered the similarities between Vettel and Hamilton's careers and being inverse to one another in their relative success/dominance. The years at Ferrari for Vettel will either make him a stronger more complete driver, or make him retire never achieving the goal of winning a championship there. Whatever the outcome, I think there won't be a long wait to see how it ends.

[epo]

and a P.S. to what I wrote earlier, here are couple screenshots of Maxes overtake on Vettel, have a look at the white line and where the 4 wheels of the RB are:
https://i.imgur.com/501Aq6Y.png
https://i.imgur.com/5nVZi4m.png

and P.P.S.
the reason why Ferrari isn't really protesting these moves not in Austria, not here, is that they keep this rabbit in the hat in case they need it when it really matters, just wait...

And the Rabbit is you ?

[TAG]

the reason why Ferrari isn't really protesting these moves not in Austria, not here, is that they keep this rabbit in the hat in case they need it when it really matters, just wait...

Karoun Chandok video?

[izzy]

Ok, let's discuss it then. Was Vettle to the left side of Max' car? No, he was BEHIND. There is no crowding or pushing anyone off the track. VET was behind MAX. Did Max make more than 1 move to defend? Not even if Max did move to the inside to block, it is well within his right and one move.

Did Max brake checked? No, he brake late into the turn. Minimum amount of track day with both car and bike that I have done, (All my bike event, the brake light has to be disabled) you cannot rely on brake light and it is the person following's job to judge the braking point. It is VET's job to make that judgement call and whether he could have brake in time but Aero played a role, it is still his job to not ram into the car in front.

I'm generally up for a debate. Seb was going a lot faster than Max, that's what made Max's move late. Seb committed to the move, he planned on not braking until the corner, perhaps that's what he blamed himself for.

It was just like Danny in Baku, he committed and then Max filled some of the space so he steered into the back of Max's car to avoid colliding wheel on wheel. Meanwhile Max also steered away again so the actual collision looked like Seb and Danny just driving into the back of him, but it was all caused by the subtle second move left, slightly into the space

And Dan79's drawing you mentioned, you have to match up the shape of the track with the events. In fact the gap to Max's left was biggest between the SC line and the gantry, where the track is parallel, and then Seb starts to back out of it near the brake marker board where the bulge is. So that shape is actually the opposite of creating and removing the gap.

[sosic2121]

and a P.S. to what I wrote earlier, here are couple screenshots of Maxes overtake on Vettel, have a look at the white line and where the 4 wheels of the RB are:
https://i.imgur.com/501Aq6Y.png
https://i.imgur.com/5nVZi4m.png

and P.P.S.
the reason why Ferrari isn't really protesting these moves not in Austria, not here, is that they keep this rabbit in the hat in case they need it when it really matters, just wait...

And the Rabbit is you ?

@jz
When I raised this question I was told by fellow member that at this corner is explicitly allowed to go outside of track.

@epo
nice one mate...

[jz11]

the reason why Ferrari isn't really protesting these moves not in Austria, not here, is that they keep this rabbit in the hat in case they need it when it really matters, just wait...

Karoun Chandok video?

no idea what you're talking about, haven't seen his vids

Epo, I'm no rabbit, nor lawyer that will write papers and fight for wins after races, but not raising issues over quite clear rule violations is done to gain leverage for later use, and all these controversial rulings where one gets the penalty, then the next race suddenly the rule is forgotten, only paves the way for such actions

edit:
@sosic2121, yes, I saw that, but that is clearly BS (well, in my opinion anyway), if there was no advantage, drivers wouldn't do it, it is really that simple, and when such things are overlooked, it, as I said, paves a way for yet more controversy, like there isn't enough of it, the only reason to allow this is to artificially create a place where an overtake can happen, good for the show, but there is just that one small matter of having to forget that the rule book exists and solve the issue behind closed doors in the stewards room

[falonso81]

When I raised this question I was told by fellow member that at this corner is explicitly allowed to go outside of track.

F1 Rules at its finest.
Is it also allowed when you make an overtaking move?
I can not comprehend how a rule has exceptions here and there. What is the point in having that rule in the first place?

[zibby43]

A slightly different topic!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZVf6Sc989E

In an action-packed race on track, this was a very nice little nugget of entertainment from the pit lane!

This stop is approaching the maximum of what can be achieved with the current rules, tools used, weight of the tires, etc. Pretty impressive.

[Restomaniac]

Seb and Max collide for the second time in 2yr.

I can think of 3 times in the last 15 months.

It’s like they are magnetic. One bloke asked if I was Nostradamus when I predicted them coming together on Sunday

[rogazilla]

...
I'm generally up for a debate. Seb was going a lot faster than Max, that's what made Max's move late. Seb committed to the move, he planned on not braking until the corner, perhaps that's what he blamed himself for.

It was just like Danny in Baku, he committed and then Max filled some of the space so he steered into the back of Max's car to avoid colliding wheel on wheel. Meanwhile Max also steered away again so the actual collision looked like Seb and Danny just driving into the back of him, but it was all caused by the subtle second move left, slightly into the space

And Dan79's drawing you mentioned, you have to match up the shape of the track with the events. In fact the gap to Max's left was biggest between the SC line and the gantry, where the track is parallel, and then Seb starts to back out of it near the brake marker board where the bulge is. So that shape is actually the opposite of creating and removing the gap.

Agreed that Seb was going faster and he does seem committed to the inside move on Max. All of this happen in split second, Still Seb was the car behind. As the following car, you can predict the car in front would go back on racing line to make the corner and try the inside move but you also have to be prepared for the lead car to defend the inside. Hence it is still Seb's job to recognize that Max is defending inside. In fact I do think he realized that and as he locks wheels, as mentioned earlier likely being so close to Max, reduced downforce, he ram into the back of Max.

In my view, Max' defending inside as he is slower and already on the left side of the track. Going back to racing line to make the left hand turn is just opening up the door for VET who has the speed that's going to take the inside (what Max would have done in Vet's position). By blocking inside and forcing VET to take the outside line or slow down following Max through the corner is really the only way for Max to defend. Look at some of Sainz' on board and may others in this race, blocking the inside at this corner is what most choose to do also.

[Manoah2u]

Lol.

I slapped my head and sat in disbelief when seeing Vettel slam into Max.
Pretty annoyed by it initially, but must say his apology and taking blame quite brushed the incident off for me.

It was bad for Max, as i really do believe he would have 'comfortably' been P2.
Didn't do too much for his WDC points or position, just minor.
I was fully surprised to see him continue after that flight into the air due to the curbs, and he finished pretty fine after that incident.

It however was absolutely destructive for Vettel. Not only has this hurt his WDC possibility gigantically, but it surely mentally has given him another hard blow.

[drunkf1fan]

Less about the mental blow it would give, more about the fact that Vettel not only wasn't able to keep a second place position for Ferrari, ruined a podium for Ferrari with another terrible move, another penalty and another round of negative PR. The hit in Ferrari's belief/stance on Vettel is going to take a bigger hit than Vettel's mentality.

After the past two seasons I felt like the chances of Ferrari offering a new contract beyond 2020 was slim to none, the chances get lower with every major mistake. A second or third place which Vettel could maybe have had for the end as Bottas still had a lot of time to make up to those two after his stop, would have been great considering where he started. Making a one stop work in a Ferrari everyone thought would chew it's tires up would have been a really positive result and instead he really couldn't have done worse for his reputation.

The real question for me is where/if he has any options for 2021. Merc, nope, Ferrari, nope, who else could be competitive, RBR, Mclaren maybe? Do RBR want a guy who Ferrari dropped because he made too many mistakes when the majority of their wins are about drivers maximising Ferrari/Mercedes screwups in the past several years, probably not and wage demands.

For me if Vettel retires in 2020 it will be his decision, if he can't get a contract with any competitive team in 2021 then F1 lost interest in him, one of those looks a lot better than the other. Kind of the same with Rosberg, got his title on the back of car domination and unreliability, when he gets outdriven in 2017/18 it tells a story about his 2016 title. If he leaves after 2016 then he can say he just improved, found ways to win and left on of his own accord.

I think Vettel is going to retire at the end of the season and leave while he can on his own terms.

[Mattchu]

Thanks for the vides @juzh ... top stuff.

On Hamiltons fastest lap I think he took every corner/apex pretty much perfect, there might have been one tiny oversteer snap late on but that car looked on rails.

Also on the Gasly overtake one, I think it was on turn 6 [left hander 1.50] did Gasly shift down one to many, the car suddenly seemed to rev a lot higher. The Honda engine sure has come a long way this year, probably a lot to do with mapping.

Best race for quite a while IMO.

[izzy]

Agreed that Seb was going faster and he does seem committed to the inside move on Max. All of this happen in split second, Still Seb was the car behind. As the following car, you can predict the car in front would go back on racing line to make the corner and try the inside move but you also have to be prepared for the lead car to defend the inside. Hence it is still Seb's job to recognize that Max is defending inside. In fact I do think he realized that and as he locks wheels, as mentioned earlier likely being so close to Max, reduced downforce, he ram into the back of Max.

In my view, Max' defending inside as he is slower and already on the left side of the track. Going back to racing line to make the left hand turn is just opening up the door for VET who has the speed that's going to take the inside (what Max would have done in Vet's position). By blocking inside and forcing VET to take the outside line or slow down following Max through the corner is really the only way for Max to defend. Look at some of Sainz' on board and may others in this race, blocking the inside at this corner is what most choose to do also.

yes you can see why each driver did what they did. Look at this though, for my point of view. Slow it down to .25 speed and watch at 26s as they come back into view after the dip. Seb has just finished his dummy to the right, and so Max is towards the middle of the track. Seb goes to the left, aiming for the space, and Max mirrors him

That second move of Max is what makes it his fault imo. He closes off the space, only by 10% or whatever, but it's enough and now Seb can't possibly stop in time, he goes right to avoid wheel on wheel and Max goes right a bit too so it ends up just looking like Seb drove into the back of him. But Max has moved left, too late. But quite subtlely. It's all just like Baku but not as obvious

[komninosm]

Does anyone know if the pitlane rules have been changed? I remember some years ago the teams had to wait so there's a safe gap to other cars. I think Red Bull again released a car with no gap like in Monaco. I don't like penalties, especially in wheel to wheel racing but risk-taking on the pitlane can end-up in broken bones or worse.

He stayed to the right of the two white lines which is deemed not in the pitlane. If he were to cross over into the lane it would be an unsafe release though. That's how i interpret it.

whut?