General Honda F1 Topic

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GhostF1
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Bandit1216 wrote:
23 Jul 2019, 08:24
Thank god CEO's never ever say anything stupid.
As a general rule, they do. On this occasion, I can't see it being total bulls***.

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HPD
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GhostF1 wrote:
23 Jul 2019, 08:08
Honda would probably sell all their facilities to Aston Martin in Milton Keynes. It's not impossible to think, but keeping Honda involved would be the smartest option, Aston know that.
Milton Keynes is not exclusive to F1. It is also for the WTCR program. And I think some Mugen department also uses it.
Keeping Honda would be the best for everyone it's true.

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nzjrs
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Alexf1 wrote:
22 Jul 2019, 21:15
Illien
This is a meme at this point. He's like the anti-Voldemort. People believe the utterance of his name will conjure race winning engines just like magic! PUs of the current complexity are at minimum a very large team effort, multiplied by natural-selection-via-dyno
Last edited by nzjrs on 24 Jul 2019, 04:47, edited 1 time in total.

NL_Fer
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Aston is not jumping in a development war, even all the IP of Honda ( which for large part would be in Japanese or rough translated). Maybe if they would freeze development or only allow the ES+K to continue to be developed.

Espresso
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Image
The collaboration between Red Bull and Honda began in 2017 at the McDonald's on the way to the Silverstone circuit, while the Japanese still supplied engines to McLaren.

"Yamamoto, do you know the McDonald's on the way to the Silverstone circuit?", with this question from Helmut Marko directed the general director of Honda, Masashi Yamamoto, negotiations between Red Bull and the Japanese began two years ago.

Cassually dressed Yamamoto and Marko met at the fast-food restaurant on an early morning in 2017, at 8:00 CEST, to start their future together, according to Japanese journalist Masahiro Owari in Sports Graphic Number magazine.

Two months later the break between McLaren and Honda was announced. The Woking had signed a three year contract starting in 2015, with the option for another two more seasons.

Although already publicly communicated that McLaren would leave Honda, the fact was, (that behind the scenes) the British sought to renew with them for three more years instead of two, because they considered 2017 a season lost due to the poor performance, in which the Japanese had not fulfilled with their obligations, and wanted one additional season (of free engines en 90 million Euro) as compensation.

The aforementioned magazine says that Honda, in addition to providing financial assistance to the team, paid 50% of the driver's salary. In total there is talk of almost 90 million euros annually provided by the Japanese to McLaren. Resulting in Woking's request to renew the contract three years more instead of two implied that Mclaren expected Honda would cover the losses of the team suffered in 2017 due to lack of results.

When Sauber broke the pre-agreement with Honda to use their engines in 2018, the Japanese were left again with only one client. However, staying with McLaren was not the only option of the Japanese when Frédéric Vasseur rejected them. Yamamoto was already looking for a future outside of Woking and that is why he met with Marko in the McDonald's.

"Yes, Mclaren helped us with our appearance in the sport and it is true that the engine we gave them lacked competitiveness. Anyway, to win in Formula 1, you need performance of both the power unit and the chassis," says Yamamoto.

"After thoughtfull deliberation about the technical abilities of those to manufacture a competitive car and have a management that could attract talent to create a car like that, Red Bull was our only option to continue," he explains.

Two years later Honda grabbed its first victory since its return to Formula 1.
Interpretation from
Source: https://soymotor.com/noticias/el-matrim ... 017-966854

Just a nice insight this article.

The gamble McLaren took trying to force Honda to pay up for one more year backfired at that moment. They ended up without supplier, thus opening the door for the surprising (whilst carefully orchestrated) engine swap between STR en McLaren. They might have looked like the loosing party at that moment.

In hindsight the way this swap was executed turned out actually very good for all parties involved.
McLaren would never have admitted their Chassis was at fault if not confronted with RBR straight on, using the same engine. And Honda could (with STR) proceed to evolve out of the limelight without restrictions.
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Nova
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The story make no sense.

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ispano6
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Naoki Yamamoto will test the STR this year in free practice, most likely at Suzuka!

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14495 ... -in-an-fp1

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HPD
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ispano6 wrote:
24 Jul 2019, 16:43
Naoki Yamamoto will test the STR this year in free practice, most likely at Suzuka!

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14495 ... -in-an-fp1
How cool! Naoki deserves it.
Unfortunately, Masashi Yamamoto already confirmed that Naoki is too old for F1.
But anyway, even if only FP1 is great news for all of Japan

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ispano6
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HPD wrote:
24 Jul 2019, 17:06
ispano6 wrote:
24 Jul 2019, 16:43
Naoki Yamamoto will test the STR this year in free practice, most likely at Suzuka!

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14495 ... -in-an-fp1
How cool! Naoki deserves it.
Unfortunately, Masashi Yamamoto already confirmed that Naoki is too old for F1.
But anyway, even if only FP1 is great news for all of Japan
He might be too old for western standards but I feel in Japan he might be at the prime age of mental acuity and physical strength as well. Maybe his reflexes aren't as quick as a 21 year old but this will be a good measure for Honda to see where their driver level is at. It is important for Honda to get their drivers experience in Formula1 machinery if even to pass on knowledge and experience gained. It may lead to more convergence of Super Formula to Formula1 technology perhaps.

63l8qrrfy6
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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GhostF1 wrote:
23 Jul 2019, 08:08
Pyrone89 wrote:
22 Jul 2019, 19:58
GhostF1 wrote:
22 Jul 2019, 09:10
Reposting an article that was deleted due to as mentioned reasons above.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/aston-mar ... a-quit-f1/

Important stuff.
- Aston Martin very happy with Honda and their involvement so far, want them to stay past 2021.
- Aston are ready to step up involvement and bring their own engine to RBR if Honda decides to leave.
- Honda money and manpower exceeds what Aston could bring to the table though.

Credit to anyone who may of beaten me to posting a similar article in any of the Honda realms here..
Aston Martin must be joking if they, a small sportscar builder who don’t even design their own road car engines (much simpler tech) can design the hyper complicated F1 engines. Why even throw this out their. It is like me saying NASA has more pilots and money, but if they need a specialized austronaut to go to the moon I am ready to jump in.
Aston do have an engine factory. Only the V8 in the Vantage is from AMG. They produce their own 5.2 Twin Turbo V12 that is in the DB11 and DBS Superleggera. They had direct involvement with Cosworth for the NA V12 to be used in the Valkyrie and are currently developing their own twin turbo hybrid V6 for use in their upcoming models (Valhalla/Vanquish Vision etc). I realise these are not F1 engines and are far less complex, however they with input from Cosworth (as rumoured) could bring something forward. I can't imagine why their CEO would say publicly they would be ready if they are very much incapable.

The idea of using Honda's current RA619H or whatever it is at the end of 2020 (RA620H?) as the base and buying the IP and continuing to develop it may not be such a crazy idea. Honda would probably sell all their facilities to Aston Martin in Milton Keynes. It's not impossible to think, but keeping Honda involved would be the smartest option, Aston know that.
Actually their engine plant is an old Ford plant. Some of the staff are actually Ford employees who have to put on AM branded clothes when they work in that part of the factory.

I would say AM suggesting they could 'step in' is insulting to Honda who are one of the very very few companies that have the knowledge and resources to make a decent F1 engine.

It surely looks like they struggled for a few years but I have no doubt that any of the current car makers would have looked like complete amateurs attempting to just jump in and deliver a F1 PU.

AM's 'interest' in coming in as an engine manufacturer in 2021 was a complete farce. Now they are trying to eek out some more PR by suggesting they could replace Honda.. what a joke..

They can't design their own engine (I don't just mean the Cosworth hypercar one, but their road car core components are all done by external consultancies) and they don't exactly have a proper engine plant either.

Ah yes and their shares literally just plunged 25%..

GhostF1
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Joined: 30 Aug 2016, 04:11

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Mudflap wrote:
25 Jul 2019, 00:44
GhostF1 wrote:
23 Jul 2019, 08:08
Pyrone89 wrote:
22 Jul 2019, 19:58

Aston Martin must be joking if they, a small sportscar builder who don’t even design their own road car engines (much simpler tech) can design the hyper complicated F1 engines. Why even throw this out their. It is like me saying NASA has more pilots and money, but if they need a specialized austronaut to go to the moon I am ready to jump in.
Aston do have an engine factory. Only the V8 in the Vantage is from AMG. They produce their own 5.2 Twin Turbo V12 that is in the DB11 and DBS Superleggera. They had direct involvement with Cosworth for the NA V12 to be used in the Valkyrie and are currently developing their own twin turbo hybrid V6 for use in their upcoming models (Valhalla/Vanquish Vision etc). I realise these are not F1 engines and are far less complex, however they with input from Cosworth (as rumoured) could bring something forward. I can't imagine why their CEO would say publicly they would be ready if they are very much incapable.

The idea of using Honda's current RA619H or whatever it is at the end of 2020 (RA620H?) as the base and buying the IP and continuing to develop it may not be such a crazy idea. Honda would probably sell all their facilities to Aston Martin in Milton Keynes. It's not impossible to think, but keeping Honda involved would be the smartest option, Aston know that.
Actually their engine plant is an old Ford plant. Some of the staff are actually Ford employees who have to put on AM branded clothes when they work in that part of the factory.

I would say AM suggesting they could 'step in' is insulting to Honda who are one of the very very few companies that have the knowledge and resources to make a decent F1 engine.

It surely looks like they struggled for a few years but I have no doubt that any of the current car makers would have looked like complete amateurs attempting to just jump in and deliver a F1 PU.

AM's 'interest' in coming in as an engine manufacturer in 2021 was a complete farce. Now they are trying to eek out some more PR by suggesting they could replace Honda.. what a joke..

They can't design their own engine (I don't just mean the Cosworth hypercar one, but their road car core components are all done by external consultancies) and they don't exactly have a proper engine plant either.

Ah yes and their shares literally just plunged 25%..
That's a bit of an archaic summary is it not? Might of been an old Ford plant, but hasn't it been massively upgraded recently, they made a decent noise about the scale? I don't think there is much leftover from the old Ford owned era regarding parts used. The new 5.2 had no outside consultancies as far as I'm aware and the fact they are making a high end mild hybrid engine for their upcoming models due within the next 2 years would suggest the opposite, which they are also claiming is a complete in house design. They had substantial years of growth after leaving Ford and are active and relatively successful in quite a few sport car series as well, they've done as well as could be hoped for their size.

As for the share loss, it isn't surprising, it seems like they are spending a lot of money revamping their entire range while also dealing with a large downturn in sales across Europe and the US, which is also not limited to them, a large number of car manufacturers are posting a big loss, even those who have had years of growth, look at Subaru, one of the few with huge sales growth year on year until recently, even Mercedes as well, another big loss posting.

I don't think it's being disrespectful, they said they'd prefer Honda to remain because their manpower and money far surpassed their own but they have to show face early to stop the rumours which were surely coming with 18 months left of the current contract and besides, Aston have shown interest in joining for a number of years now, they hired Luca Marmorini (ex-Ferrari F1 engine boss up to 2015) to research viability and actually, I believe they've performed several single cylinder tests on the dyno with their own design (Porsche did the same), there are articles floating about. And look, Honda are playing the same game, they have board members literally saying their future involvement isn't confirmed, which isn't exactly confidence inspiring to AMRBR. it could be a tactic to coax Honda to stay but honestly, it's likely a public stunt to curb rumours before they start

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JordanMugen
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Nova wrote:
24 Jul 2019, 16:26
The story make no sense.
Agreed. Why would Honda pay 90m Euro to McLaren without taking the naming rights sponsorship and having Honda livery all over the car? It is illogical. That price would easily cover the naming rights sponsorship of McLaren.

PS. I think Honda should on-purchase some advertising space from Aston Martin, to increase the amount of Honda branding on the Red Bull. Likewise Honda buying sponsorship with the Toro Rosso team, it would be nice to see Honda branding on the rear wing of the Toro Rosso similar to Toro Rosso's Cespa deal. :)

Image

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rscsr
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Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Mudflap wrote:
25 Jul 2019, 00:44
GhostF1 wrote:
23 Jul 2019, 08:08
Pyrone89 wrote:
22 Jul 2019, 19:58

Aston Martin must be joking if they, a small sportscar builder who don’t even design their own road car engines (much simpler tech) can design the hyper complicated F1 engines. Why even throw this out their. It is like me saying NASA has more pilots and money, but if they need a specialized austronaut to go to the moon I am ready to jump in.
Aston do have an engine factory. Only the V8 in the Vantage is from AMG. They produce their own 5.2 Twin Turbo V12 that is in the DB11 and DBS Superleggera. They had direct involvement with Cosworth for the NA V12 to be used in the Valkyrie and are currently developing their own twin turbo hybrid V6 for use in their upcoming models (Valhalla/Vanquish Vision etc). I realise these are not F1 engines and are far less complex, however they with input from Cosworth (as rumoured) could bring something forward. I can't imagine why their CEO would say publicly they would be ready if they are very much incapable.

The idea of using Honda's current RA619H or whatever it is at the end of 2020 (RA620H?) as the base and buying the IP and continuing to develop it may not be such a crazy idea. Honda would probably sell all their facilities to Aston Martin in Milton Keynes. It's not impossible to think, but keeping Honda involved would be the smartest option, Aston know that.
Actually their engine plant is an old Ford plant. Some of the staff are actually Ford employees who have to put on AM branded clothes when they work in that part of the factory.

I would say AM suggesting they could 'step in' is insulting to Honda who are one of the very very few companies that have the knowledge and resources to make a decent F1 engine.

It surely looks like they struggled for a few years but I have no doubt that any of the current car makers would have looked like complete amateurs attempting to just jump in and deliver a F1 PU.

AM's 'interest' in coming in as an engine manufacturer in 2021 was a complete farce. Now they are trying to eek out some more PR by suggesting they could replace Honda.. what a joke..

They can't design their own engine (I don't just mean the Cosworth hypercar one, but their road car core components are all done by external consultancies) and they don't exactly have a proper engine plant either.

Ah yes and their shares literally just plunged 25%..
And just remember the Aston Martin AMR-One, which wasn't capable of doing more than a handful of laps in LeMans.

Espresso
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Joined: 13 Dec 2017, 15:03

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Nova wrote:
24 Jul 2019, 16:26
The story make no sense.
Absolutely makes sense. Gives an Intriguing insight in the happenings in 2017.
Ron Dennis was a great negotiator. (And subsequently dumped after successful negotiations as he's a very bad politician)

Honda was already 'controlled' by MCL in how Honda had to develop the engine and advertising space they received.
They foolishly/innocently signed a 'no rights but do everything' contract with MCL eager to get back into F1 and onto the road off success....
And at least I didn't know MCL put a gun to Honda's face and blasted: "3 years of engines and money...or you are dead..."

McLaren played their poker hand, thinking they could force Honda to go into a 3 year commitment by
1. Suaber already having pulled out.
2. MCL telling Honda they didn't call the option for 2 year extension, leaving Honda without any customer team
3. Putting Honda literary into a take it or leave it scenario.

4. Comes silently: Accept MCL demands. 3 year free engines and 90 million sponsorship (without additional advertising space)...or leave F1 and loose face (and commit Harakiri...)

And as loosing face is amongst the greates disgrace in Japan MCL expected Honda to fully accept their demands.

MCL bit the dust as they didn't know Honda was already in talks with STR/RBR.

Suddenly MCL was left without engine and no other available engine supplier....

Now the new scenario was: MCL either find an engine supplier or leave F1.

Comes to stage: STR, the knight in shining armor. Rescuing MCL with an engine supplier (swap) and on the way (seemingly) sacrificing itself to accept the Honda 'GP2' engine and keep Honda in F1 (for the FIA).

You have to admit, utilizing the situation this was a carefully orchestrated tactical execution. :wink:

In the grand scheme of things....did Honda after being humiliated continuously by MCL deliberately keep MCL on the helmet letting them steer the ship into the Abyss?

________________________________________________________
Mudflap wrote:
25 Jul 2019, 00:44

Actually their engine plant is an old Ford plant. Some of the staff are actually Ford employees who have to put on AM branded clothes when they work in that part of the factory.

I would say AM suggesting they could 'step in' is insulting to Honda who are one of the very very few companies that have the knowledge and resources to make a decent F1 engine.

It surely looks like they struggled for a few years but I have no doubt that any of the current car makers would have looked like complete amateurs attempting to just jump in and deliver a F1 PU.

AM's 'interest' in coming in as an engine manufacturer in 2021 was a complete farce. Now they are trying to eek out some more PR by suggesting they could replace Honda.. what a joke..

They can't design their own engine (I don't just mean the Cosworth hypercar one, but their road car core components are all done by external consultancies) and they don't exactly have a proper engine plant either.

Ah yes and their shares literally just plunged 25%..
Considering the works relation between Honda, Red Bull and Aston Martin the way I read it....
"If Honda decides to step out of F1, AM is ready & willing to continue develop the existing the Honda Engine.
They'll rebrand is for sure, but the core would stay Honda."

So to speak not a 'Ford-Cosworth" but a Honda-Aston Martin"

...and sadly English shares plummet while the Brexit nightmare keeps ongoing...
Last edited by Espresso on 25 Jul 2019, 14:15, edited 4 times in total.
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Bill
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Joined: 28 Apr 2018, 10:28

Re: General Honda F1 Topic

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Mclaren Honda contract was effective for 10 years it was a long term deal that didn't work out.Mclaren wanted out as soon as 2017 winter testing when the engine was breaking down oil leaks and faulty oil tank. Why would Mclaren be paying Honda for breaking contact if Honda wanted out or why was Hasegawa so keen to salvage to the deal . The Str & Rbr are not a factor as they have always enquired about the Honda pu even in 2015 when they were terrible.i think resent news are just bs they seem opportune because Honda are now winning someone feels like gloating

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