Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Mr1ntu05
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Illien had no input this engine.

Thunder18
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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IIRC in Ted's Notebook after Germany he said Honda were working with Illmor

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ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Snorked wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:45 pm
Japanese publisher made a special edition magazine celebrating Honda's win in Austria - looks to feature an interview with Asaki and Honda Jet about the PU.

http://www.as-books.jp/preview/7128/24/



http://www.as-books.jp/books/preview.php?no=7128

Hope somebody can translate.
Which parts? The article is several pages, but perhaps the most interesting content comes toward the end about the Honda Jet collaboration and Asaki-sans bits.

A small preview from the title and cover page of Asaki interview Pg.24:
浅木泰明
Asaki Yasuaki

この勝利が、第一歩。
This win is the first step

勝たなければ、その本当の重さはわかりません。
If you don't win, you won't understand the true weight of it.

成功体験は技術者を変えると思っています。
I believe experiencing success changes an engineer.

教えれきれない悔しさが、私たちを強くした。
An unteachable lesson in chagrin made us stronger.

Also from Pg.30 regarding the evolution of RA619H seems pretty interesting as well. I don't have the physical copy yet so it will take a little.
Last edited by ispano6 on Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bill
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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When Honda had issues with with their Mguh they went their jet department and they solved it . They whole imollar thing is a dog whistle to say Honda only became successful by using help from outside Japan. Remember when Honda was struggling they were constantly battered laughed at for not accepting "help" from their European peer by British media. The likes of boiler insistent that they should do things the f1 way .Honda has never denied using consultants but there role is more managerial on how to organize staff similar to the role Brawn played even though he is an engineer has does not design cars.

63l8qrrfy6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Wazari wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:27 am
roon wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:46 am


Sorry to post this grim image, but notice the color of the fluids. Oil or coolant? Seems to be two colors in the photo, one transparent, one ochre. I dont know how big the oil coolers were in 2016.

https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/amp ... -crash.jpg
The gold colored liquid was coolant. There are several reasons why the specific coolant is used in the current PU, but the three major factors are vapor pressure, cylinder head/combustion chamber temps with regards to vibration and fuel consumption.
Vapour pressure is just non-sense coolant companies try to push claiming you are less likely to pop coolant hoses and such. In a well designed engine cooling system the boiling regime never leads to net generation of steam. As I mentioned previously, nucleate boiling is desirable but in this case the bubbles eventually collapse.

The other "major factor - cylinder head/combustion chamber temps with regards to vibration" is just absolute bollocks.

Maybe you should try harder than just quoting silly coolant brochures..

GhostF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Mudflap wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:06 pm
Wazari wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:27 am
roon wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:46 am


Sorry to post this grim image, but notice the color of the fluids. Oil or coolant? Seems to be two colors in the photo, one transparent, one ochre. I dont know how big the oil coolers were in 2016.

https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/amp ... -crash.jpg
The gold colored liquid was coolant. There are several reasons why the specific coolant is used in the current PU, but the three major factors are vapor pressure, cylinder head/combustion chamber temps with regards to vibration and fuel consumption.
Vapour pressure is just non-sense coolant companies try to push claiming you are less likely to pop coolant hoses and such. In a well designed engine cooling system the boiling regime never leads to net generation of steam. As I mentioned previously, nucleate boiling is desirable but in this case the bubbles eventually collapse.

The other "major factor - cylinder head/combustion chamber temps with regards to vibration" is just absolute bollocks.

Maybe you should try harder than just quoting silly coolant brochures..
Just curious and because you're calling him out pretty confidently. Mind providing a link to the "brochure" that specifically says what he's claiming? So a brochure that talks about head and chamber temps with regards to vibration.

You're obviously well versed in this area to be able to deny something so vehemently. So for the forums benefit, mind sharing?

63l8qrrfy6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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GhostF1 wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:44 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 10:06 pm
Wazari wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:27 am

The gold colored liquid was coolant. There are several reasons why the specific coolant is used in the current PU, but the three major factors are vapor pressure, cylinder head/combustion chamber temps with regards to vibration and fuel consumption.
Vapour pressure is just non-sense coolant companies try to push claiming you are less likely to pop coolant hoses and such. In a well designed engine cooling system the boiling regime never leads to net generation of steam. As I mentioned previously, nucleate boiling is desirable but in this case the bubbles eventually collapse.

The other "major factor - cylinder head/combustion chamber temps with regards to vibration" is just absolute bollocks.

Maybe you should try harder than just quoting silly coolant brochures..
Just curious and because you're calling him out pretty confidently. Mind providing a link to the "brochure" that specifically says what he's claiming? So a brochure that talks about head and chamber temps with regards to vibration.

You're obviously well versed in this area to be able to deny something so vehemently. So for the forums benefit, mind sharing?
This is the vapour pressure spiel - posted it earlier:
http://www.evanscoolants.co.uk/PDS/4pp_ ... ol_180.pdf

The cylinder head vibration is complete gobbledygook (or his interpretation of the above brochure, see "maximize BHP") - don't really know where that comes from. I am looking forward to an explanation from the illustrious Wazari. I am pretty sure it's some top secret research that can't be shared with the forum or something to that effect.

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Wazari
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Cylinder head and block vibration is "complete gobbledygook" okay..........the vibration effect of these PU's is not like any roadcar. Since others know more on this subject, I will just stay out of the matter. Yeah, they're running 100% water.

Just some points to ponder, maybe the recirculation of the "coolant" is much, much lower than one would think and how thin-walled are the cooling components especially the radiators.
If you can make the opposition flinch, you have already won.

Singabule
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Wazari wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:24 am
Cylinder head and block vibration is "complete gobbledygook" okay..........the vibration effect of these PU's is not like any roadcar. Since others know more on this subject, I will just stay out of the matter. Yeah, they're running 100% water.

Just some points to ponder, maybe the recirculation of the "coolant" is much, much lower than one would think and how thin-walled are the cooling components especially the radiators.
Wazari san, do you know how much pressure that F1 radiator could handle as the team tends to make it as Light as possible? And how much lower the liquid metal mass compared to water one in high level? Im sure that this is not too secretive for all F1 team.

63l8qrrfy6
63l8qrrfy6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Wazari wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:24 am
Cylinder head and block vibration is "complete gobbledygook" okay..........the vibration effect of these PU's is not like any roadcar. Since others know more on this subject, I will just stay out of the matter. Yeah, they're running 100% water.

Just some points to ponder, maybe the recirculation of the "coolant" is much, much lower than one would think and how thin-walled are the cooling components especially the radiators.


But I insisit - please enlighten us.
How is the cylinder head and block vibration relevant and what does the coolant have to do with it?

What about thin walls? FIA mandates max 4 bar pump outlet pressure - that's your design point regardless of coolant.

What do you call coolant recirculation?

roon
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Wazari wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:27 am
roon wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 1:46 am


Sorry to post this grim image, but notice the color of the fluids. Oil or coolant? Seems to be two colors in the photo, one transparent, one ochre. I dont know how big the oil coolers were in 2016.

https://cdn-1.motorsport.com/images/amp ... -crash.jpg
The gold colored liquid was coolant. There are several reasons why the specific coolant is used in the current PU, but the three major factors are vapor pressure, cylinder head/combustion chamber temps with regards to vibration[,] and fuel consumption.
First bold: what link are you making? Strength as it relates vibration and temperature? e.g. aluminum losing strength with temperature and how this affects its resonance/harmonics?

Second bold: how are coolant chemistry and fuel consumption related? Is this merely a comment on heat rejection increasing with fuel flow rate?

The word 'pressure' has me wondering. Maybe the strength of the engine can be increased with coolant pressure, as with inflatable structures. Ergo, a hot running aluminum engine that maintains rigidity by using high pressure coolant. Radiators could be protected with regulators.

Mudflap wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:45 am
FIA mandates max 4 bar pump outlet pressure...
Source? 7.5 says coolant header tanks must be fitted with a 3.75 bar relief valve. I find no reference to coolant pump pressure limits. 5.13 acknowledges that pumps generally may be producing more than 10bar pressure.

5.13 Engine ancillaries :
All coolant pumps, oil pumps, scavenge pumps, oil/air separators, hydraulic pumps and fuel
pumps delivering more than 10bar must be mechanically driven directly from the engine
and/or MGU-K with a fixed speed ratio.

Maritimer
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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High pressure, peak vibration and thin components would mean cavitation becomes cause for concern, yes? Running the system at high pressure could help "harden" the block by putting everything under compression but surely that would increase metal fatigue and any erosion caused by coolant cavitation.
Last edited by Maritimer on Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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“Running the system at 150psi + will help” 150 PSI?.
An interesting read:- Motorsports technology “Playing it cool – The dynamics of modern F1 car cooling systems explained”.

Maritimer
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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=D>
saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:00 am
“Running the system at 150psi + will help” 150 PSI?.
An interesting read:- Motorsports technology “Playing it cool – The dynamics of modern F1 car cooling systems explained”.
My mistake, I read pump pressures of 10BAR, that's obviously not how high they run the system :lol:

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IvailoStefanovBG
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Does somenody know what is the lowest possible operating temperature suitable for cylinder head and cobustion chamber to prevent knocking?