2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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lio007
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Joined: 28 Jan 2013, 23:03
Location: Austria

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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It's tricky to figure out what's true, and what is just pure speculation.
We heard
# there has been only talks in 2007 / 2008, but he obviously never signed
# since then there haven't been any talks
# since then several talks habe taken place, but again he obviously never signed
# Alonso made it clear to the top teams that he is available (07.2019)
# Alonso declined offers from RB to join the Team
Pretty confusing what can be found in the media.
In my opinion it's better to have him not in the team. I have the feeling that he can be quite political from time to time, and bring disharmony into a team. Right now the team spirit, also with Honda, is very good. Things can turn sour if he might join the team.
It could also be that I'm completely wrong, but this is my impression of the situation.

KelsO
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Joined: 07 Mar 2019, 22:58

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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drunkf1fan wrote:
16 Aug 2019, 02:32
Sainz didn't distance himself, he got a loan but didn't beg to be released and seemingly wanted the RBR seat but trying to push out of hte program probably made them feel like he'd jump ship given the opportunity so wasn't worth investing more time in.

Kvyat didn't have any time wasted nor is he a driver despite their best efforts. Kvyat got moved up to RBR because they considered him worthy of doing so, he was plenty fast and drove well. They also got him into F1 for the same reasons. Demotion was a very painful pill to swallow but wasn't done out of malice, it was done out of seeing that Verstappen had the potential to match or maybe even beat Hamilton, Ricciardo didn't show that potential and while Kvyat had more room to improve he didn't show that level of talent either. RBR had very little choice but to promote Verstappen to keep hold of him. That's how sport goes sometimes, you can be great but someone better comes along and the team need them more than you.

For as much as I rated Kvyat's time at RBR highly and I think he did very well, after his return to TR he performed very poorly, at times miserably. He had reason to sure, but he also could have taken it on the chin and reacted better and driven great, had he done so he'd have kept his seat or maybe had the chance to move to a different team than TR. As said the demotion was tough, but these things happen, Kvyat reacting as badly as he did was while unfortunate and understandable, still his fault and it's those poor performance that led to him being replaced by Gasly/Hartley. Hartley wasn't brought up because he was better than Kvyat or they were desperate to give him a shot, it's because Kvyat was underperforming so badly at that stage that they had few other options.

kvyat is now driving very well again but had he driven like this after the demotion he'd never have left F1.
Kvyat was expelled from Red Bull under very strange circumstances. The first two races he had strange problems with the engine, he didn’t even start in the first race, and lost 2.5 seconds in qualification, 1.2 in Bahrain. The unthinkable difference for F1 pilots. In China, Marco publicly complained about Dani's podium. I’ve been watching F1 for 20 years, I don’t believe in such a loss of pace, you can accuse me of conspiracy theory, but this is not an accident. Obviously, Max for them had great marketing attractiveness and potential, and they found the reason themselves.
   It is worth remembering that in the first season, Max completely lost to Ricciardo in qualifications and races, how many car he broke is difficult to calculate, while no one pressed him. But! If you recall 2015, Marco immediately began to put pressure on Kvyat.
It is also worth remembering that in 2017 in the TR, only Kvyat had so many problems with tactics, the TR constantly made terrible tactical decisions, and how many times he had technical problems. While Sainz worked with an experienced and very strong engineer Marko Matassa, Dani worked with a newcomer, because Max's former engineers were fired. Yes, Kvyat was wrong, often got into accidents, but these errors were caused by an attempt to compensate for the team’s failures. When Kvyat was not mistaken, the team was mistaken, when the team was not mistaken, Kvyat was mistaken. As Tost said, they have lost mutual trust and this is true.
  Now I support Honda, Max and RB. Max may be the fastest pilot right now, he's great, he is my hero. But I am absolutely sure that Kvyat’s departure was political, not sporting. Is it possible to blame the pilot for breaking when he is specially drained? It was better honestly to say that we need Max. That would be honest and fair. I remember how in 2017 RB lied that Hartley was at the level of Kvyat, although he lost to him 1.3 s. in qualifications and very much lost in racing (I saw telemetry of each circle), to be honest sometimes it’s better to be silent than to lie constantly. RB should finally understand this.

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Wouter
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Joined: 16 Dec 2017, 13:02

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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KelsO wrote:
17 Aug 2019, 20:22
Kvyat was expelled from Red Bull under very strange circumstances.
The first two races he had strange problems with the engine, ............
I totally agree with you on Daniil. I also noticed all these things.
When he was returned to STR, everything in the team went wrong.
Many highly educated people were fired and Daniil was the victim.
I really felt sorry for him.
Now it seemed that he had become a very bad driver and that really wasn't true.
The Power of Dreams!

Jolle
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Joined: 29 Jan 2014, 22:58
Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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KelsO wrote:
17 Aug 2019, 20:22
drunkf1fan wrote:
16 Aug 2019, 02:32
Sainz didn't distance himself, he got a loan but didn't beg to be released and seemingly wanted the RBR seat but trying to push out of hte program probably made them feel like he'd jump ship given the opportunity so wasn't worth investing more time in.

Kvyat didn't have any time wasted nor is he a driver despite their best efforts. Kvyat got moved up to RBR because they considered him worthy of doing so, he was plenty fast and drove well. They also got him into F1 for the same reasons. Demotion was a very painful pill to swallow but wasn't done out of malice, it was done out of seeing that Verstappen had the potential to match or maybe even beat Hamilton, Ricciardo didn't show that potential and while Kvyat had more room to improve he didn't show that level of talent either. RBR had very little choice but to promote Verstappen to keep hold of him. That's how sport goes sometimes, you can be great but someone better comes along and the team need them more than you.

For as much as I rated Kvyat's time at RBR highly and I think he did very well, after his return to TR he performed very poorly, at times miserably. He had reason to sure, but he also could have taken it on the chin and reacted better and driven great, had he done so he'd have kept his seat or maybe had the chance to move to a different team than TR. As said the demotion was tough, but these things happen, Kvyat reacting as badly as he did was while unfortunate and understandable, still his fault and it's those poor performance that led to him being replaced by Gasly/Hartley. Hartley wasn't brought up because he was better than Kvyat or they were desperate to give him a shot, it's because Kvyat was underperforming so badly at that stage that they had few other options.

kvyat is now driving very well again but had he driven like this after the demotion he'd never have left F1.
Kvyat was expelled from Red Bull under very strange circumstances. The first two races he had strange problems with the engine, he didn’t even start in the first race, and lost 2.5 seconds in qualification, 1.2 in Bahrain. The unthinkable difference for F1 pilots. In China, Marco publicly complained about Dani's podium. I’ve been watching F1 for 20 years, I don’t believe in such a loss of pace, you can accuse me of conspiracy theory, but this is not an accident. Obviously, Max for them had great marketing attractiveness and potential, and they found the reason themselves.
   It is worth remembering that in the first season, Max completely lost to Ricciardo in qualifications and races, how many car he broke is difficult to calculate, while no one pressed him. But! If you recall 2015, Marco immediately began to put pressure on Kvyat.
It is also worth remembering that in 2017 in the TR, only Kvyat had so many problems with tactics, the TR constantly made terrible tactical decisions, and how many times he had technical problems. While Sainz worked with an experienced and very strong engineer Marko Matassa, Dani worked with a newcomer, because Max's former engineers were fired. Yes, Kvyat was wrong, often got into accidents, but these errors were caused by an attempt to compensate for the team’s failures. When Kvyat was not mistaken, the team was mistaken, when the team was not mistaken, Kvyat was mistaken. As Tost said, they have lost mutual trust and this is true.
  Now I support Honda, Max and RB. Max may be the fastest pilot right now, he's great, he is my hero. But I am absolutely sure that Kvyat’s departure was political, not sporting. Is it possible to blame the pilot for breaking when he is specially drained? It was better honestly to say that we need Max. That would be honest and fair. I remember how in 2017 RB lied that Hartley was at the level of Kvyat, although he lost to him 1.3 s. in qualifications and very much lost in racing (I saw telemetry of each circle), to be honest sometimes it’s better to be silent than to lie constantly. RB should finally understand this.
The way you change facts to "go your way" is how conspiracy theorist work.

During their first season together, 2016, Verstappen and Ricciardo were pretty evenly matched, although Verstappen stepped in without doing winter testing. 7 vs 8 podiums, both one win, and always within range in qualifying, balancing positions during the season. So far from being destroyed.

I don't believe the switch had much to do with Kvyat but more with the progression and pressure Verstappen had put on RedBull and in retrospect they were right. His rate of development is steep and STR was always going backwards in 2016 due to their 2015 engine, which wasn't developed. Kvyat's real end for Marko was that he couldn't develop in 2017, while Sainz was, with less years under his belt, outperforming Kvyat on every level.

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diffuser
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Joined: 07 Sep 2012, 13:55
Location: Montreal

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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McMika98 wrote:
17 Aug 2019, 15:57
diffuser wrote:
17 Aug 2019, 15:00
DChemTech wrote:
17 Aug 2019, 14:07
I really don't get why people are so insisting on seeing Alonso back on the grid. He had his time. Now it's up to a new generation.
Alonso still is 1 of F1s top 3 drivers is a good reason to have him back.
Alonso's stock is way overrated. Norris last year on practice runs was putting lap times close to his quali runs. If he was in Mclaren, he would have suffered the same fate as Sainz as in getting spanked by a rookie teenager. Sainz is as good a racer as Alonso. The new gens are a breath of fresh air, id happily watch them then the old timer.
I don't remember seeing that and if you're not running at the same time it doesn't count. Temperature variations make a huge difference.

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diffuser
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Joined: 07 Sep 2012, 13:55
Location: Montreal

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
18 Aug 2019, 00:06
McMika98 wrote:
17 Aug 2019, 15:57
diffuser wrote:
17 Aug 2019, 15:00


Alonso still is 1 of F1s top 3 drivers is a good reason to have him back.
Alonso's stock is way overrated. Norris last year on practice runs was putting lap times close to his quali runs. If he was in Mclaren, he would have suffered the same fate as Sainz as in getting spanked by a rookie teenager. Sainz is as good a racer as Alonso. The new gens are a breath of fresh air, id happily watch them then the old timer.
I don't remember seeing that and if you're not running at the same time, same day it doesn't count. Temperature variations make a huge differences.

I also don't want to get into the huge make believe comparison (one without any data). Its doesn't prove anything.

Capharol
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Joined: 04 Nov 2018, 17:06
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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why are you Quoting yourself diffuser? seen it several times now

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Wouter
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Joined: 16 Dec 2017, 13:02

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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Capharol wrote:
18 Aug 2019, 10:03
why are you Quoting yourself diffuser? seen it several times now
That answer seems very logical to me.
Someone has read his message of 00.06 h and does not read the added sentence of 03.00 h again / so misses it.
Then it is wiser to quote and complete the entire message.

You did the same (later addition) on another forum, so someone (Jip) missed your later addition and you subsequently accused him, which was absolutely not correct.
So you can get misunderstanding through a later addition. :wink:
The Power of Dreams!

HondaPOD
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Joined: 21 Jul 2018, 09:38

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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Honda facing "very complicated" Red Bull penalty call
The question is when you will change the PU keeping in mind these 3 points:
  • you want to do well in Belgium : almost Max home grand prix
  • you can win Singapore
  • you must do very well at Suzuka
.

For my point of view, RBR should change Albon PU in Spa, Max in Monza, use the old PU for Singapore and Suchi and from then using the 4th PU for the remaining GPs of the season. I believe they can do it and finish the year with only 4 PUs.
Last edited by HondaPOD on 18 Aug 2019, 18:00, edited 1 time in total.

f1jcw
17
Joined: 21 Feb 2019, 21:15

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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HondaPOD wrote:
18 Aug 2019, 11:25
Honda facing "very complicated" Red Bull penalty call
The question is when you will change the PU keeping in mind these 3 points:
  • you want to do well in Belgium : almost Max home grand prix
  • you can win Singapore
  • you must do very well at Suzuka
.

For my point of view, RBR should change Albon PU in Spa, Max in Monza, use the old PU for Singapore and Suchi and from then using the 4th PU for the remaining GPs of the season. I believe they can do it and finish the year with only 4 PUs.
Which engine targets does Albon have, is it linked to driver or car
His own as a driver or the 2nd red bulls

HondaPOD
2
Joined: 21 Jul 2018, 09:38

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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f1jcw wrote:
18 Aug 2019, 11:28
HondaPOD wrote:
18 Aug 2019, 11:25
Honda facing "very complicated" Red Bull penalty call
The question is when you will change the PU keeping in mind these 3 points:
  • you want to do well in Belgium : almost Max home grand prix
  • you can win Singapore
  • you must do very well at Suzuka
.

For my point of view, RBR should change Albon PU in Spa, Max in Monza, use the old PU for Singapore and Suchi and from then using the 4th PU for the remaining GPs of the season. I believe they can do it and finish the year with only 4 PUs.
Which engine targets does Albon have, is it linked to driver or car
His own as a driver or the 2nd red bulls
The PUs are related to the car and not the driver. you can see the previous discussions here.
Albon will start Spa weekend with 3 PU on the pool (inherited from Gasly)

Alexf1
8
Joined: 28 Jun 2018, 18:52

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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HondaPOD wrote:
18 Aug 2019, 11:25
Honda facing "very complicated" Red Bull penalty call
The question is when you will change the PU keeping in mind these 3 points:
  • you want to do well in Belgium : almost Max home grand prix
  • you can win Singapore
  • you must do very well at Suzuka
.

For my point of view, RBR should change Albon PU in Spa, Max in Monza, use the old PU for Singapore and Suchi and from then using the 4th PU for the remaining GPs of the season. I believe they can do it and finish the year with only 4 PUs.
What's so 'very complicated'. They're all wise men and women. Give races prio hi, mid, lo and make the decision. The moment they introduced spec 3 in France they knew.

kasio
1
Joined: 16 Feb 2016, 10:03

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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KelsO wrote:
17 Aug 2019, 20:22
....
 Now I support Honda, Max and RB. Max may be the fastest pilot right now, he's great, he is my hero. But I am absolutely sure that Kvyat’s departure was political, not sporting. Is it possible to blame the pilot for breaking when he is specially drained? It was better honestly to say that we need Max. That would be honest and fair. I remember how in 2017 RB lied that Hartley was at the level of Kvyat, although he lost to him 1.3 s. in qualifications and very much lost in racing (I saw telemetry of each circle), to be honest sometimes it’s better to be silent than to lie constantly. RB should finally understand this.
cmon! rearing another driver twice is not political. it is his own responsibility. he was not good enough and thats the only reason there was considerations to replace him.

Capharol
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Joined: 04 Nov 2018, 17:06
Contact:

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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Wouter wrote:
18 Aug 2019, 10:48
Capharol wrote:
18 Aug 2019, 10:03
why are you Quoting yourself diffuser? seen it several times now
That answer seems very logical to me.
Someone has read his message of 00.06 h and does not read the added sentence of 03.00 h again / so misses it.
Then it is wiser to quote and complete the entire message.

You did the same (later addition) on another forum, so someone (Jip) missed your later addition and you subsequently accused him, which was absolutely not correct.
So you can get misunderstanding through a later addition. :wink:
could be ..... was just a question which only he really can answer, and you mean that forum where Mods delete you because you stand up for another user and report a Post that was not friendly meant? :wink: ....

but thats OT

User avatar
Wouter
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Joined: 16 Dec 2017, 13:02

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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Capharol wrote:
18 Aug 2019, 11:58
Wouter wrote:
18 Aug 2019, 10:48
Capharol wrote:
18 Aug 2019, 10:03
why are you Quoting yourself diffuser? seen it several times now
That answer seems very logical to me.
Someone has read his message of 00.06 h and does not read the added sentence of 03.00 h again / so misses it.
Then it is wiser to quote and complete the entire message.

You did the same (later addition) on another forum, so someone (Jip) missed your later addition and you subsequently accused him, which was absolutely not correct.
So you can get misunderstanding through a later addition. :wink:
could be ..... was just a question which only he really can answer, and you mean that forum where Mods delete you because you stand up for another user and report a Post that was not friendly meant? :wink: ....

but thats OT
Excuse me for answering a question that you think only the other person can answer.
I thought a forum was meant to express your opinion about something.

It would be very boring here if you can only respond if someone asks you something.
The Power of Dreams!

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