Leclerc's win in Monza signals the arrival of F1 reality TV

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dans79
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Re: Leclerc's win in Monza signals the arrival of F1 reality TV

Post by dans79 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:25 pm

strad wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:21 pm
It hasn't always been "after you" niceness in the past ya know.
We can't live in the past forever, even though some people would like to! I mean if we want to be all manly about it take away their helmets, flame retardant suits, & belts. Give them a pair of goggles and say have at it...

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Re: Leclerc's win in Monza signals the arrival of F1 reality TV

Post by strad » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:29 pm

Dan, Dan, Dan :lol: ...Not talking about that far back.
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KeiKo403
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Re: Leclerc's win in Monza signals the arrival of F1 reality TV

Post by KeiKo403 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:56 pm

Mudflap wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:01 pm
I detest this whole idea of the black and white flag - it just gives stewards another mechanism to avoid making a potentially controversial decision.
I may be wrong here but I don't think it's the stewards who have a call on the B&W flag. I think Masi said that he as Race Director makes that call and if they get another one for the same incident then it goes to the stewards. which just makes the whole thing worse IMO.

I read somewhere that Gasly got 3 B&W flags in Spa for cutting the chicane at the end of the kemmel straight. If that's true then again this whole B&W flag thing is pointless.

I kind of get the feeling that now it's been used (tounge in cheek) to gift Ferrari a Monza win the FIA will come out and say we've reviewed blah blah blah and we won't accept this anymore on safety grounds. Just like what the FIA did a few races back when they didn't penalise Leclerc for the unsafe release and Ferrari basically just paid a few thousand euros to gain/maintain a position during the pit stop.

It's a shame that FOM don't broadcast the driver briefings anymore, however dull they might seem most of the time I'd like to know what the answer is when Hamilton asks how they're allowed to race going forward and when Verstappen asks why he used to get penalties for the same thing.

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Re: Leclerc's win in Monza signals the arrival of F1 reality TV

Post by turbof1 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:17 pm

I personally have some issues also with this new kind of stewarding.

If we take the example of Hamilton being forced off the track by Leclerc, the biggest gripe I have is that if there is no damage, you'll get one-time pass on that. The obvious problem with that, is that taking damage also depends on if the competing driver keeps his or her car in there and just lets the other driver drive right into the side, or if the driver takes evasive action. Basically Hamilton was given 2 choices: keep a stand and have his car potentially significantly damaged, or take evasive action and break off the overtake attempt. I feel stewarding, no matter if you want hard or soft racing, should never put drivers into the position where they have to choose between the plague and cholera.

They can finetune it, however. They should take into account in their decision making the disadvantages a driver is getting for avoiding damage coming from an offender. If the disadvantage is minor, like just banging wheels without consequence or having to do a small corner cutting without loosing a lot of ground, you can perhaps argue "alright, let us just use the black and white flag so things don't get out of hand". In Hamilton's case I'd probably argue he had too much disadvantage for just that. In that case I'd propose, in the spirit of letting them race, to give Leclerc a delta time he has to stay above for the corresponding mini sector the next lap, just to correct the disadvantage being done. If the driver does not, regulation and penalty will be applied. I believe in motogp they already do this, and it is considered very fair.

Racing shouldn't be nice, I agree with that. I think everybody wants to see drivers fighting tooth and nail for their position. That being said, you somehow will have to make it fair also.
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Re: Leclerc's win in Monza signals the arrival of F1 reality TV

Post by dans79 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:43 pm

KeiKo403 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:56 pm
I may be wrong here but I don't think it's the stewards who have a call on the B&W flag. I think Masi said that he as Race Director makes that call and if they get another one for the same incident then it goes to the stewards. which just makes the whole thing worse IMO.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14590 ... iving-rise
Masi said the new system does not prevent stewards stepping in independently to punish something they think is wrong.

"It is ultimately the stewards' decision if someone gets penalised," he explained.

"The bad sportsmanship flag is me, but if the stewards feel there is more to it they absolutely have the capability of issuing a penalty and that is where it sits.
This is the part that is absolutely infuriating. The stewards are the law on race weekends, and while they don't need to be judge Dreed, the naive nanny mentality they've displayed the last few years doesn't cut it either.

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Re: Leclerc's win in Monza signals the arrival of F1 reality TV

Post by cooken » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:21 pm

Also, what happens if there is light contact (front wing to tire) with no damage, vs exact same contact but a puncture? Same penalty just because contact our further scaled by the random outcome??

What happens if a driver is forced off track without contact and:
- rejoins in same position and gap
- loses control and his barrier (out of race)
- picks up debris and gets a puncture
- spins and loses a bunch of places
-etc etc

They all just warning flag with no penalty because no contact? This is the precedent they are now setting. Clearly this new system has not been well thought out.

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Re: Leclerc's win in Monza signals the arrival of F1 reality TV

Post by dans79 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:41 pm

cooken wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:21 pm
They all just warning flag with no penalty because no contact? This is the precedent they are now setting. Clearly this new system has not been well thought out.
The thing I see happening is drivers intentionally taking an opponent out.

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Re: Leclerc's win in Monza signals the arrival of F1 reality TV

Post by Phil » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:33 pm

Personally, i didnt like the way Leclerc defended at Monza, but i am not sure i would have preferred the race to be decided through a penalty (like in Canada).

To a certain extent, i think incidents like this should be ‘self policed’.

Self policed, means that if a crash happens as a result of overstepping certain limits, it ultimately can/will punishes both through damage, loss of position, or maybe even a DNF.

If there isnt a crash or damage, there’s no lasting consequence to the race and result.

Sure, this will make racing even harder, there will be more incidents amd therefore consequences, but through that, there will also be less as drivers will take care to risk more when it is worth it and not when the likelihood of a successfull overtake is slim.

Why do i think that? Well because i feel motorsport is and will always be dangerous. I dont believe we need more steward intervention, but less. The more we have, the more we are round up in here debating the fairness and conspiracy. That all cant be good. We need simpler racing and maybe tracks (and cars) that offer better overtaking opportunities.
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Re: Leclerc's win in Monza signals the arrival of F1 reality TV

Post by Just_a_fan » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:59 pm

Phil wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:33 pm


Self policed, means that if a crash happens as a result of overstepping certain limits, it ultimately can/will punishes both through damage, loss of position, or maybe even a DNF.

If there isnt a crash or damage, there’s no lasting consequence to the race and result.
In the Leclerc / Hamilton "push off" incident, Hamilton could have had damage done to his car - the floor, bargeboards or even suspension - whilst Leclerc could have got away with no damage at all. Where is the self policing in that situation?

Hamilton (or any other driver in the same situation) has a right to be there because he positioned his car early and took the space, and the inside line driver has a right to defend. But defending by putting someone on the grass, in the braking zone, is not correct. Leclerc should have defended by going slightly long in to the corner, not allowing Hamilton the chance to swoop around the outside, or even, at that chicane, allow him the use of the cut back. Such defence requires subtle skill to get right, but if done makes the outside driver decide either to back out of it or go across the kerb. That's reasonable defence. Pushing someone on to the grass in the braking zone isn't.

It's the difference between skilled racing and hamfisted racing-sim racing.

I do think that if, once the title is his, the situation is repeated Hamilton won't move over next time. He'll let Leclerc come across and hit him. Even if both escape without a crash/damage, Leclerc will get a penalty for causing a collision - something the stewards are still not impressed with. That will remind Leclerc that close racing requires respect from both drivers.
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Re: Leclerc's win in Monza signals the arrival of F1 reality TV

Post by JordanMugen » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:09 pm

dans79 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:41 pm
The thing I see happening is drivers intentionally taking an opponent out.
That is nothing new...

Mr. Senna displeased: https://youtu.be/xLI6fOG3WdI?t=662

Mr. Prost displeased: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foiswIS44AM

Mr. Hill displeased: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91JoW4mSiZo

Mr. Schumacher displeased: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AhNs_W5OQU
Phil wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:33 pm
Personally, i didnt like the way Leclerc defended at Monza
To win the race, Leclerc did not have a choice. The Ferrari was not quite fast enough. "Win-at-all-costs" is the game. :)

Leclerc's move was not even especially dangerous. At the very last race, Perez did a far more dangerous blocking move on Albon: https://youtu.be/CLt1IouHgxg?t=162 ...and received no penalty for it! Where were the outcries to penalise dangerous driving then? :raises eyebrow:
Last edited by JordanMugen on Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dans79
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Re: Leclerc's win in Monza signals the arrival of F1 reality TV

Post by dans79 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:11 pm

JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:09 pm
dans79 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:41 pm
The thing I see happening is drivers intentionally taking an opponent out.
That is nothing new...

Mr. Senna displeased: https://youtu.be/xLI6fOG3WdI?t=662

Mr. Prost displeased: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foiswIS44AM

Mr. Hill displeased: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91JoW4mSiZo

Mr. Schumacher displeased: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AhNs_W5OQU
Again just because it happened in the past, doesn't mean the fia should be doing something that makes it more likely in the future.

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Re: Leclerc's win in Monza signals the arrival of F1 reality TV

Post by JordanMugen » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:14 pm

dans79 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:11 pm
Again just because it happened in the past
The common denominator is that the drivers do what they need to do to win (or protect P5 or P12).

Really, calling out Leclerc as a dangerous driver is bizarre. If anyone is a dangerous driver in the field it's Magnussen -- Magnussen's last second chops are very dicey, far more dangerous than anything Leclerc has done...

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Re: Leclerc's win in Monza signals the arrival of F1 reality TV

Post by dans79 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:31 pm

JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:09 pm
Leclerc's move was not even especially dangerous. At the very last race, Perez did a far more dangerous blocking move on Albon: https://youtu.be/CLt1IouHgxg?t=162 ...and received no penalty for it! Where were the outcries to penalise dangerous driving then? :raises eyebrow:

OK I'm going to lay out the rules in detail for you, and explain why Leclerc broke the rules and why Perez looks not to have.

On the straits, the defending driver is only required to leave a cars width when the attacking driver has an overlap.

Hamilton was overlaped with Leclerc when he squeezed him out. so it's a slam dunk rules violation.

Perez looks to have closed the door before Albon had an overlap, but Albon went for it anyway. I say looks, because its not clear from albon's onboard.

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Re: Leclerc's win in Monza signals the arrival of F1 reality TV

Post by mattylwd » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:46 pm

JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:14 pm
dans79 wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:11 pm
Again just because it happened in the past
The common denominator is that the drivers do what they need to do to win (or protect P5 or P12).

Really, calling out Leclerc as a dangerous driver is bizarre. If anyone is a dangerous driver in the field it's Magnussen -- Magnussen's last second chops are very dicey, far more dangerous than anything Leclerc has done...
Agree on both, LeClerc is not a dirty driver IMO. Magnussen is, he should have got atleast 1 raceban for that move in Baku 2018

https://youtu.be/-rLOM40dkds

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Re: Leclerc's win in Monza signals the arrival of F1 reality TV

Post by AMG.Tzan » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:57 pm

Leclerc's moves were on the limit but inside of what is allowed! After Austria Leclerc realized at what point he can defend and race other people...had his defence on Hamilton earned him a penalty, it would have been silly since Verstapen's move in Austria didn't earn Max a penalty!
Of course a Ferrari leading in Monza will always be an argument for Leclerc not getting a penalty but i don't think it has something to do with that...and i am a Hamilton fan..!
Leclerc was so good at defending for 53 laps from 2 Mercedes that Hamilton was able to have a real go at him only once...Bottas wasn't even able to have that go!

I believe Leclerc's Sunday drive was just a masterclass...Vettel wouldn't have been able to defend, so error prone he has become lately!

So no need for drama or reality TVs talking...it was just racing as it should be!