Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Snorked
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Yamamoto did say they were using talent from their jet and HRC divisions, so what could the bike guys be helping with if not combustion?

Iirc, Asaki in his French GP interview said there was one more partnership, and details would be coming at the right time, maybe the Japan GP is that time.

If like past years, we should be getting photos of the 2019 engine naked on display in the next few days 🀞

rogazilla
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Something important to a motorcycle is engine characteristic. You want the power output to be predictable and easy on the rider to modulate. Granted those motogp riders are insanely skillful but throttle control is a very important part. Just my opinion because that could be something else they could contribute other than combustion tech.

I haven't really followed MotoGP for the last 4 years and I don't know what they do with traction control now but one thing with motorcycle, there is a huge emphasis on how the drive train reacts to keep as much contact patch on the tarmac. I remember even on the road bike, Honda was working really hard to reduce the chassis rocking or chain jerking during transmission shift to make sure the bike is as stable during shifting or engine braking.

wuzak
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Snorked wrote: ↑
Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:12 pm
Yamamoto did say they were using talent from their jet and HRC divisions, so what could the bike guys be helping with if not combustion?
HRC engineers may well be helping with combustion, but I doubt they are using anything they learned in MotoGP.

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Marti_EF3
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Snorked wrote: ↑
Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:12 pm
Yamamoto did say they were using talent from their jet and HRC divisions, so what could the bike guys be helping with if not combustion?

Asaki in his French GP interview said there was one more partnership, and details would be coming at the right time, maybe the Japan GP is that time.

If like past years, we should be getting photos of the 2019 engine naked on display in the next few days 🀞
May be the collaboration with Hitachi for some electrical parts??

sn809
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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rogazilla wrote: ↑
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:22 pm
Something important to a motorcycle is engine characteristic. You want the power output to be predictable and easy on the rider to modulate. Granted those motogp riders are insanely skillful but throttle control is a very important part. Just my opinion because that could be something else they could contribute other than combustion tech.

I haven't really followed MotoGP for the last 4 years and I don't know what they do with traction control now but one thing with motorcycle, there is a huge emphasis on how the drive train reacts to keep as much contact patch on the tarmac. I remember even on the road bike, Honda was working really hard to reduce the chassis rocking or chain jerking during transmission shift to make sure the bike is as stable during shifting or engine braking.
Lol, I hope that is not the case, as per Lorenzo their Moto GP bike is very tough to ride.

Bullwinkle
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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rogazilla wrote: ↑
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:22 pm
Something important to a motorcycle is engine characteristic. You want the power output to be predictable and easy on the rider to modulate. Granted those motogp riders are insanely skillful but throttle control is a very important part. Just my opinion because that could be something else they could contribute other than combustion tech.

I haven't really followed MotoGP for the last 4 years and I don't know what they do with traction control now but one thing with motorcycle, there is a huge emphasis on how the drive train reacts to keep as much contact patch on the tarmac. I remember even on the road bike, Honda was working really hard to reduce the chassis rocking or chain jerking during transmission shift to make sure the bike is as stable during shifting or engine braking.
aren't the HRC MotoGP engines of the "Big Bang" variety? Wasn't there a rumor a couple years ago of the Honda F1 engines playing around with Big Bang concepts? Just asking.

rogazilla
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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sn809 wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:33 pm
...

Lol, I hope that is not the case, as per Lorenzo their Moto GP bike is very tough to ride.
pure guessing and joking but maybe that's why they have issue launching and wheel spins and why Gas couldn't drive it? :lol:

rogazilla
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Bullwinkle wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:37 pm
aren't the HRC MotoGP engines of the "Big Bang" variety? Wasn't there a rumor a couple years ago of the Honda F1 engines playing around with Big Bang concepts? Just asking.
I haven't really kept up with what they are doing in MotoGP for a while. The idea of Big Bang and my personal experience riding a friend's R1 years ago. It seems to reduce the vibration frequency down the chain driven rear wheel. I don't know if that's of any value for the gearbox in F1 and obviously not chain driven rear wheel.

Polite
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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rogazilla wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:44 pm
Bullwinkle wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:37 pm
aren't the HRC MotoGP engines of the "Big Bang" variety? Wasn't there a rumor a couple years ago of the Honda F1 engines playing around with Big Bang concepts? Just asking.
I haven't really kept up with what they are doing in MotoGP for a while. The idea of Big Bang and my personal experience riding a friend's R1 years ago. It seems to reduce the vibration frequency down the chain driven rear wheel. I don't know if that's of any value for the gearbox in F1 and obviously not chain driven rear wheel.
bigbang firing order engine in motogp is usefull cause it simulates a 2 cylinders engine. This is usefull to not stress too much the rear tyre in acceleration, while losing not too much on the max power then a screamer 4 cylinders engine. :wink:

Nonserviam85
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Bullwinkle wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:37 pm
rogazilla wrote: ↑
Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:22 pm
Something important to a motorcycle is engine characteristic. You want the power output to be predictable and easy on the rider to modulate. Granted those motogp riders are insanely skillful but throttle control is a very important part. Just my opinion because that could be something else they could contribute other than combustion tech.

I haven't really followed MotoGP for the last 4 years and I don't know what they do with traction control now but one thing with motorcycle, there is a huge emphasis on how the drive train reacts to keep as much contact patch on the tarmac. I remember even on the road bike, Honda was working really hard to reduce the chassis rocking or chain jerking during transmission shift to make sure the bike is as stable during shifting or engine braking.
aren't the HRC MotoGP engines of the "Big Bang" variety? Wasn't there a rumor a couple years ago of the Honda F1 engines playing around with Big Bang concepts? Just asking.
There is no danger of falling off an F1 car...

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Polite wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:22 pm
rogazilla wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:44 pm
Bullwinkle wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 10, 2019 2:37 pm
aren't the HRC MotoGP engines of the "Big Bang" variety? Wasn't there a rumor a couple years ago of the Honda F1 engines playing around with Big Bang concepts? Just asking.
I haven't really kept up with what they are doing in MotoGP for a while. The idea of Big Bang and my personal experience riding a friend's R1 years ago. It seems to reduce the vibration frequency down the chain driven rear wheel. I don't know if that's of any value for the gearbox in F1 and obviously not chain driven rear wheel.
bigbang firing order engine in motogp is usefull cause it simulates a 2 cylinders engine. This is usefull to not stress too much the rear tyre in acceleration, while losing not too much on the max power then a screamer 4 cylinders engine. :wink:
Should higher peaks from the big band stress the tyre more though? Sounds counter intuitive when you say it stresses it less.
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LH44

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑
Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:02 pm
Polite wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:22 pm
rogazilla wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:44 pm
I haven't really kept up with what they are doing in MotoGP for a while. The idea of Big Bang and my personal experience riding a friend's R1 years ago. It seems to reduce the vibration frequency down the chain driven rear wheel. I don't know if that's of any value for the gearbox in F1 and obviously not chain driven rear wheel.
bigbang firing order engine in motogp is usefull cause it simulates a 2 cylinders engine. This is usefull to not stress too much the rear tyre in acceleration, while losing not too much on the max power then a screamer 4 cylinders engine. :wink:
Should higher peaks from the big band stress the tyre more though? Sounds counter intuitive when you say it stresses it less.
big bang - my eye !
(perhaps those who upvoted Polite can give their BB evidence to us)

Moto GP has 500 bangs per second (whether evenly-spaced or unevenly-spaced)
that fat squidgy fabric bag filled with air (the rear tyre) won't transmit bangs over about 5 cycles per second
ie the tread is isolated like your car is isolated from the engine vibrations by the elastic engine mounts

to big bang or not is more about crankshaft design factors related to friction and as the late Prof Gordon Blair wrote ...
the effects on power curve of the various different gas dynamics in the plenum (and the rider's belief/prejudices)
(Prof Blair was a consultant on the Ducati Moto GP)
induction sequences designed like novice xylophone player's moves (not like virtuoso's) are best

the 'BB' stories only started with the NSR500 (V4 2 stroke) then the M1 inline 4 4 stroke and then with V4s
for decades 2 strokes (sq 4 Suzukis, inline 4 Yamahas) had simultaneous firing ie BB - and no-one mentioned BB !
Honda had simultaneous firings in the NR500 and VFR 400s/750s - and no-one mentioned BB !)
people only noticed BB after the NSR went to a lot of trouble (despite the wide V angle) to be even-firing (ask Doohan)
(any natural crankshaft design in near 90 deg V4 2 stroke would and did amount to so-called BB by accident)

a BB F1 could have all crankpins in line so 3 bangs together, then 270 deg peace, the other 3 bangs, then 450 deg peace
this would and other so-called BB schemes would be bad for the turbocharging

btw in 1959 Johnny Giles put a simultaneous-firing engine in his Triumph (factory) scrambler
the bosses went mad (imagine a Triumph sounding like a Manx Norton) and stopped him
Jim Alves proved the Triumph could beat all those ' invincible' single-cylinder trials machines (ok he said he could go slower)

ispano6
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Marti_EF3 wrote: ↑
Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:31 pm
Snorked wrote: ↑
Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:12 pm
Yamamoto did say they were using talent from their jet and HRC divisions, so what could the bike guys be helping with if not combustion?

Asaki in his French GP interview said there was one more partnership, and details would be coming at the right time, maybe the Japan GP is that time.

If like past years, we should be getting photos of the 2019 engine naked on display in the next few days 🀞
May be the collaboration with Hitachi for some electrical parts??
I was hoping NASA JPL/Caltech.

Polite
Polite
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:36 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑
Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:02 pm
Polite wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:22 pm
rogazilla wrote: ↑
Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:44 pm


I haven't really kept up with what they are doing in MotoGP for a while. The idea of Big Bang and my personal experience riding a friend's R1 years ago. It seems to reduce the vibration frequency down the chain driven rear wheel. I don't know if that's of any value for the gearbox in F1 and obviously not chain driven rear wheel.
bigbang firing order engine in motogp is usefull cause it simulates a 2 cylinders engine. This is usefull to not stress too much the rear tyre in acceleration, while losing not too much on the max power then a screamer 4 cylinders engine. :wink:
Should higher peaks from the big band stress the tyre more though? Sounds counter intuitive when you say it stresses it less.
really counter intuitive but its true

.. every bang is a stress but 4 bangs very close together produce more stress on the rubber then only 2 bangs in the same amount of time.

maybe is the frequency that matters the most but i can help more than this. #-o

deschrijver
deschrijver
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Big bang engines in motogp have been introduced to have more rear wheel grip and for having a softer caracter of power delivery.
By unequalising the fire order of the engine, there comes a frequency change of power delivered to the tyre.
Think of the tire gets some more time to rest after 2 rapid combustions.