2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

[e30ernest]

He should be disqualified. He ignored safety orders. He could have killed Hamilton. Those pieces could have been ejected into the spectators. I was there trackside.

The team failed to pit him directly, he doesn't see the damage to his FW and he didn't feel it as well.
When the team told (in time) him to pit he pitted.

regardless of what he felt or when the team told him, he should have gotten a Black flag the first time he went down the main Strait. The FIA claims to be an organization that puts heavy emphasis on safety, yet they routinly fail to actually prove it.

Apparently the FIA did not feel the need to flag him down because Ferrari told the FIA that they were bringing him in. When he did not pit on lap 2, the FIA began talking with Ferrari, so they pitted him again.

I'm pretty disappointed with Leclerc on this race. Watching his onboard on the incident with Verstappen, he could have probably given that place up and avoid the collision. He had enough pace to overtake later anyway.

Vettel got lucky. That was clearly a jump-start. The FIA is beginning to over-rely on technologies. So they say the transponder did not detect the movement.... That's a pretty big jump IMO. He did an awesome job defending against Hamilton though. I just feel bad for him he didn't convert his amazing pole. So is this another case of nerves getting the better of him? Maybe.

[RZS10]

That was clearly a jump-start. The FIA is beginning to over-rely on technologies. So they say the transponder did not detect the movement....

Does anyone believe the transponder is unable to detect what appeared to be at least a 10cm jump with harsh acceleration and deceleration?

[e30ernest]

That was clearly a jump-start. The FIA is beginning to over-rely on technologies. So they say the transponder did not detect the movement....

Does anyone believe the transponder is unable to detect what appeared to be at least a 10cm jump with harsh acceleration and deceleration?

If they are stupidly relying on pure GPS then maybe (it's within the error). They might have timing beams on those yellow bars and he could not have crossed those as well if he had enough space from the front of his tires.

I'm not defending him though. I think it's stupid they didn't penalize him for that due to a technicality (rules specify movement is based on their detection systems).

[gdanielwesley]

That was clearly a jump-start. The FIA is beginning to over-rely on technologies. So they say the transponder did not detect the movement....

Does anyone believe the transponder is unable to detect what appeared to be at least a 10cm jump with harsh acceleration and deceleration?

If they are stupidly relying on pure GPS then maybe (it's within the error). They might have timing beams on those yellow bars and he could not have crossed those as well if he had enough space from the front of his tires.

I'm not defending him though. I think it's stupid they didn't penalize him for that due to a technicality (rules specify movement is based on their detection systems).

They don't rely on GPS. The jump start detection system has a tolerance built it, it is to allow for movement due to uphill/downhill starts. it worked in Botas's favour once, now it worked in Vettel's favour. Vettel stopped and started again and no gain was made. This is how the system works, get over it.

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[RZS10]

As i mentioned previously in the race thread they've changed the wording of the false start rule to prevent things like that start of Bottas from happening and we all know the outcome had it been another team with such a start ... let's say an Alfa for example

[gdanielwesley]

As i mentioned previously in the race thread they've changed the wording of the false start rule to prevent things like that start of Bottas from happening and we all know the outcome had it been another team with such a start ... let's say an Alfa for example

This is what the stewards had to say about the false start...

Whilst the video shows some movement that movement was within the acceptable
tolerance of the F1 jump start system which formerly defines a jump start per Article
36.13(a) of the FIA Formula One Sporting Regulations.

In Kimi's case the system detected a false start unlike vettel's and Botas's.


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[e30ernest]

Does anyone believe the transponder is unable to detect what appeared to be at least a 10cm jump with harsh acceleration and deceleration?

If they are stupidly relying on pure GPS then maybe (it's within the error). They might have timing beams on those yellow bars and he could not have crossed those as well if he had enough space from the front of his tires.

I'm not defending him though. I think it's stupid they didn't penalize him for that due to a technicality (rules specify movement is based on their detection systems).

They don't rely on GPS. The jump start detection system has a tolerance built it, it is to allow for movement due to uphill/downhill starts. it worked in Botas's favour once, now it worked in Vettel's favour. Vettel stopped and started again and no gain was made. This is how the system works, get over it.

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Ok I can see some tolerances built-in, how much would that be though?

It's a bit weird that in the pinnacle of racing they'll need some leeway for uphill or downhill grids. When we used to do hillclimb events we were pretty strict on movement on the start line. Drivers would use their Park brakes to hold the car's steady since we had our left foot on the clutch and right on the throttle. Since F1 car's only have 2 pedals, shouldn't this be easier?

Again, I'm not dissing on Vettel for this specifically. Other drivers get penalties for false starts too. I can't remember which race this happened to Bottas though (I miss quite a few starts due to my timezone).

[pb6797]

I was under the impression when Bottas had his "jump" start, he actually didn't move until after the lights changed, it was simply so close it was clear he hadn't reacted to the lights but had been very lucky not to jump it:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13063 ... -was-legal

https://twitter.com/f1/status/101297662 ... 22?lang=en

On the video you can see the wing wobble but the wheels don't appear to move, to my eyes, until the lights are out. Whereas Vettel clearly rolled some distance and then stopped again.

What I think it more important is, if Vettel was within tolerance (i.e. he didn't roll far enough to trigger any sensors, despite it clearly being quite a long way) that means he had stopped a long way from where he could have started, giving away several centimetres or more of start. He probably needs to work on his parking

[marvin78]

It's the smart thing to do on downhill grids.

[RZS10]

Ok I can see some tolerances built-in, how much would that be though?

I simply don't buy that what looked like at least 15-20cm is "within tolerances" ... it's believable that the few millimeters Bottas moved two or maybe three frames of the world feed footage before the lights went out were "within tolerances" but there's no way in hell their system is unable to detect a car moving that distance ...

My theory is the following: Vettel did not come to a halt before the lights turned off but he was still within his grid position - when the lights finally turned off he was still slowing down, however the speed he was travelling at was low enough to not trigger the automated false start detection.



If that's the case the stewards ignored the actual blatant false start and only looked at the tiny time frame around the moment the race started.

That explanation however is probably wrong because the detection system turns on with the first red light - so according to the FIA jumping the start by ~0.3s and moving ~20cm is "within tolerance".

According to AMuS Ferrari even claimed that Vettel absolutely did not move before the lights turned off and that he started moving three tenths AFTERWARDS which meant the sensors did not trigger - which is obviously a barefaced lie.

And it's extremely amusing that people who were fuming when Bottas wasn't penalized for what they perceived was a 'false start' (Vettel included, he still believes it was one) now think moving several times as far is perfectly fine...

Comparing those two situations is also idiotic, Vettel's is comparable to Kimi's in the last race, with the major difference being that Kimi left his grid position thus breaking 36.13 b)

The rule supposedly got stricter but all they did was change the wording and adding the "moved before the start signal is given" part and b)
old 36.13:
"Either of the penalties under articles 38.3c) or d) will be imposed for a false start judged using an FIA supplied transponder which must be fitted to the car as specified"
new 36.13 a):
"Either of the penalties under Articles 38.3c) or d) will be imposed on any driver who is judged
to have moved before the start signal is given, such judgement being made by an FIA approved
and supplied transponder fitted to each car."
b)
"Positioned his car on the starting grid in such a way that the transponder is unable to
detect the moment at which the car first moved from its grid position after the start
signal is given."

[Artur Craft]

I was under the impression when Bottas had his "jump" start, he actually didn't move until after the lights changed, it was simply so close it was clear he hadn't reacted to the lights but had been very lucky not to jump it:

Champ, there was a video PROVING that Bottas moved before the lights go out

[digitalrurouni]

It's ridiculous that much movement and they didn't even do anything. Stewarding is a joke.

[Zynerji]

That was a list of someones teammates. But where ist the data that makes them stronger than teammates from other good drivers? There is no measurement at all. So it stays guessing. Who says that Webber was not able to achieve a WDC or two with another car and teammate? So guess if you like. I won't take part in something like that. And it's pointless for me. I am not a driver fan.

For the record: I don't say that people could be right with their guessing. But stating these things as a fact is more than silly.

When Webber was moaning after a Q session that Seb was nothing but a human computer, and that he couldn't replicate his precision, I became a believer that having the best tools only gets you so far. You must replicate, in real time, the perfect control of a car for dozens of laps to win 4 titles. Seb earned my respect from the anguished look on Webbers face. Never seen it on Hamilton's teammates.

[gdanielwesley]

If they are stupidly relying on pure GPS then maybe (it's within the error). They might have timing beams on those yellow bars and he could not have crossed those as well if he had enough space from the front of his tires.

I'm not defending him though. I think it's stupid they didn't penalize him for that due to a technicality (rules specify movement is based on their detection systems).

They don't rely on GPS. The jump start detection system has a tolerance built it, it is to allow for movement due to uphill/downhill starts. it worked in Botas's favour once, now it worked in Vettel's favour. Vettel stopped and started again and no gain was made. This is how the system works, get over it.

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Ok I can see some tolerances built-in, how much would that be though?

It's a bit weird that in the pinnacle of racing they'll need some leeway for uphill or downhill grids. When we used to do hillclimb events we were pretty strict on movement on the start line. Drivers would use their Park brakes to hold the car's steady since we had our left foot on the clutch and right on the throttle. Since F1 car's only have 2 pedals, shouldn't this be easier?

Again, I'm not dissing on Vettel for this specifically. Other drivers get penalties for false starts too. I can't remember which race this happened to Bottas though (I miss quite a few starts due to my timezone).

Botas's one is Austria 2017. The tolerances seam to be a bit too much I agree. But it is the same system for everyone so as long as it's consistent, it should be ok.

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[e30ernest]

They don't rely on GPS. The jump start detection system has a tolerance built it, it is to allow for movement due to uphill/downhill starts. it worked in Botas's favour once, now it worked in Vettel's favour. Vettel stopped and started again and no gain was made. This is how the system works, get over it.

Sent from my POCO F1 using Tapatalk

Ok I can see some tolerances built-in, how much would that be though?

It's a bit weird that in the pinnacle of racing they'll need some leeway for uphill or downhill grids. When we used to do hillclimb events we were pretty strict on movement on the start line. Drivers would use their Park brakes to hold the car's steady since we had our left foot on the clutch and right on the throttle. Since F1 car's only have 2 pedals, shouldn't this be easier?

Again, I'm not dissing on Vettel for this specifically. Other drivers get penalties for false starts too. I can't remember which race this happened to Bottas though (I miss quite a few starts due to my timezone).

Botas's one is Austria 2017. The tolerances seam to be a bit too much I agree. But it is the same system for everyone so as long as it's consistent, it should be ok.

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Yeah there could be tolerances to put into account tiny car movements (shifting to 1st or finding clutch bite). In that case, the tolerances would be rather small (probably measured in millimeters). However, Vettel's false start was much more than that, so I'm guessing the tolerances were pretty huge.

Thing is, he probably escaped purely due to the fact he didn't gain an advantage. I reckon they would have been less lenient despite what the telemetry says if he held on to that lead.

Went back to watch Bottas' start in 2017. It was really close. It's nothing like this, so I do not think it would be fair to compare the two starts. Bottas starts moving as soon as the lights went out. Vettel moved before.

Moot point since this is all over now. I just hope that in future races they tighten this area up.