2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Zynerji
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Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post by Zynerji » Wed Oct 09, 2019 3:11 am

wuzak wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:09 am
Could these butterflies be part of the variable inlet system?
100%

hurril
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post by hurril » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:04 am

Zynerji wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:37 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:21 pm
Agree with @mudflap. Highly unlikely (and probably illegal) to operate butterflies at valve train frequency. You would be talking six actuators operating at very high speed. It is hard enough to get the intake valves to operate at these speeds - butterflies as well???

Using Miller cycle to help homogenise main-chamber mix - quite possible - interesting idea.

On definitions Atkinson cycle describes the general family of engines with CR<ER including those using weird mechanisms. (eg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNsJOsnuIMA)

Miller cycle is a subset of these using valve timing to reduce CR without affecting ER.
It is proven that the "butterflies" exist as I've described. They look like an oddly formed cam shaft, so 3 cylinders operated per shaft.

At this point, how is there still an argument? It would only make sense that it would operate at valve train speeds as synchronization would obviously be required.
Can I read about these proven butterflies somewhere?

michl420
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Location: Austria

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post by michl420 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 8:50 am

In Russia, the two ferraris were instructed to save fuel during the lap 1 SC. Does this mean they started with 110 kg in the fuel tank? I assumed that this happens only on very fuel intense tracks like singapure. It would also indicate that at last the ferrari engine is still fuel limited.

Zynerji
58
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post by Zynerji » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:23 pm

hurril wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:04 am
Zynerji wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:37 pm
gruntguru wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:21 pm
Agree with @mudflap. Highly unlikely (and probably illegal) to operate butterflies at valve train frequency. You would be talking six actuators operating at very high speed. It is hard enough to get the intake valves to operate at these speeds - butterflies as well???

Using Miller cycle to help homogenise main-chamber mix - quite possible - interesting idea.

On definitions Atkinson cycle describes the general family of engines with CR<ER including those using weird mechanisms. (eg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNsJOsnuIMA)

Miller cycle is a subset of these using valve timing to reduce CR without affecting ER.
It is proven that the "butterflies" exist as I've described. They look like an oddly formed cam shaft, so 3 cylinders operated per shaft.

At this point, how is there still an argument? It would only make sense that it would operate at valve train speeds as synchronization would obviously be required.
Can I read about these proven butterflies somewhere?
I made a post with the article about the Honda Cackle engine sound. Search it up.

hurril
44
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post by hurril » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:30 pm

Zynerji wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:23 pm
hurril wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:04 am
Zynerji wrote:
Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:37 pm


It is proven that the "butterflies" exist as I've described. They look like an oddly formed cam shaft, so 3 cylinders operated per shaft.

At this point, how is there still an argument? It would only make sense that it would operate at valve train speeds as synchronization would obviously be required.
Can I read about these proven butterflies somewhere?
I made a post with the article about the Honda Cackle engine sound. Search it up.
I can only find claims by you based on bad assumptions on what the/a VLIM is and what a butterfly valve is. Do you have a source for your claims?

Zynerji
58
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post by Zynerji » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:46 pm

hurril wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:30 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:23 pm
hurril wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:04 am


Can I read about these proven butterflies somewhere?
I made a post with the article about the Honda Cackle engine sound. Search it up.
I can only find claims by you based on bad assumptions on what the/a VLIM is and what a butterfly valve is. Do you have a source for your claims?
I see. IIRC, there were pictures, and even someone that had built one like I described, and said it had a positive effect.

I don't have time nor inclination to go find it, but I'm guessing you were one of the vocal detractors that provided no counter evidence?

Mudflap
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Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post by Mudflap » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:56 pm

This is a bit like asking us to prove that god doesnt exist rather than you proving that he does.
How much TQ does it make though?

hurril
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Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post by hurril » Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:43 am

Zynerji wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:46 pm
hurril wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:30 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:23 pm


I made a post with the article about the Honda Cackle engine sound. Search it up.
I can only find claims by you based on bad assumptions on what the/a VLIM is and what a butterfly valve is. Do you have a source for your claims?
I see. IIRC, there were pictures, and even someone that had built one like I described, and said it had a positive effect.

I don't have time nor inclination to go find it, but I'm guessing you were one of the vocal detractors that provided no counter evidence?
No I was not but now I know your role.

Zynerji
58
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post by Zynerji » Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:42 pm

hurril wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:43 am
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:46 pm
hurril wrote:

I can only find claims by you based on bad assumptions on what the/a VLIM is and what a butterfly valve is. Do you have a source for your claims?
I see. IIRC, there were pictures, and even someone that had built one like I described, and said it had a positive effect.

I don't have time nor inclination to go find it, but I'm guessing you were one of the vocal detractors that provided no counter evidence?
No I was not but now I know your role.
You only know what you are shown. 🤣🤣

"All you know about me is what I've sold you
Dumb ---
I sold out long before you ever heard my name
I sold my soul to make a record
Dip ---
And you bought one"

hurril
44
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post by hurril » Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:42 pm

Zynerji wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:42 pm
hurril wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 8:43 am
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:46 pm


I see. IIRC, there were pictures, and even someone that had built one like I described, and said it had a positive effect.

I don't have time nor inclination to go find it, but I'm guessing you were one of the vocal detractors that provided no counter evidence?
No I was not but now I know your role.
You only know what you are shown. 🤣🤣

"All you know about me is what I've sold you
Dumb ---
I sold out long before you ever heard my name
I sold my soul to make a record
Dip ---
And you bought one"
I have no beef with you and I don't want one. I just wanted to read the proof that you had.

KeiKo403
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Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:16 pm

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post by KeiKo403 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:57 pm

Hello, I'm new to this particular topic as it's all way over my head. So please excuse the lack of knowledge from me but I often come with random questions. Hopefully I can just drop my brain f*rts here and see who says they smell good or bad. I won't be offended if everyone says they smell rotten!

I've tried to do my own research but couldn't find what I was looking for, most likely down to my poor search terms and the fact I don't actually know what I'm talking about.

Anyway, on with it...
Could there any benefit (if permitted by the regs) to running a 1.6l v6 as a 4 cylinder engine? Same fuel flow rate so each cylinder ends up with 50% more fuel per combustion cycle (is that even the right terminology :wtf: )?

Would something like that increase acceleration at the expense of top speed or vice versa? And then switch back to normal V6 mode?

Like I said, I've got no idea what I'm talking about but hey, it's a question. And judging by the past few pages (didn't have time to read all 633) you people are the experts!

Mudflap
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Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:36 pm

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post by Mudflap » Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:19 pm

If you could remove the pumping and frictional losses associated with the extra 2 cylinders that don't do anything and provided that your working 4 cylinders could cope with the increased thermal and mechanical loads associated with operating at higher duty then yes, there could be a thermal efficiency gain.
How much TQ does it make though?

Holm86
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Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post by Holm86 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:58 pm

Mudflap wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:19 pm
If you could remove the pumping and frictional losses associated with the extra 2 cylinders that don't do anything and provided that your working 4 cylinders could cope with the increased thermal and mechanical loads associated with operating at higher duty then yes, there could be a thermal efficiency gain.
Pumping losses would be relatively easy to minimize, they run individual throttle bodies so just keep the two deactivated throttles fully open.
But what would the advantage be??

Mudflap
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Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:36 pm

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post by Mudflap » Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:40 pm

Holm86 wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 7:58 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:19 pm
If you could remove the pumping and frictional losses associated with the extra 2 cylinders that don't do anything and provided that your working 4 cylinders could cope with the increased thermal and mechanical loads associated with operating at higher duty then yes, there could be a thermal efficiency gain.
Pumping losses would be relatively easy to minimize, they run individual throttle bodies so just keep the two deactivated throttles fully open.
But what would the advantage be??
Lower heat losses from smaller effective combustions surface.

Also throttles are not individually operated.
How much TQ does it make though?

gruntguru
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Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:43 am

Re: 2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

Post by gruntguru » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:41 am

Its a great question. When this formula first appeared I held the view that in the absence of the 1.6 litre capacity regulation, the optimum engine size would have been something smaller - perhaps 1 litre with 3 or 4 cylinders. So, whats to stop the the teams deactivating 2 or 3 cylinders permanently - no piston crown and no rings would reduce pumping and friction?

They certainly deactivate cylinders already - at part load. More efficient to run 3 cylinders at full load than 6 cylinders at 1/2 load.
je suis charlie