2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
digitalrurouni
19
Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2016 5:50 pm

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by digitalrurouni » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:07 pm

cokata wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:25 pm
Juzh wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:55 pm
10 minutes of hamilton chasing vettel towards the end. 349 kmh at one point :shock: :
https://streamable.com/0j6t6
https://streamable.com/0j6t6

fastest lap - new lap record. no uselss commentary, just engine sounds
https://streamable.com/yk5jz
https://streamable.com/yk5jz
Thanks Juhz, you are the MVP with those videos.

Can we get a similar telemetry from Vettel's ferrari when he was defending, i am curious to see what at the top speed and how much clipping there is when the PU is turned up to 11. That Ferrari is a rocket!
Seconded!

zibby43
262
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:16 am

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by zibby43 » Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:07 am

Yeah, Hamilton wasn't making it to the end (in P1, maybe not even in P2) on those Mediums.

Hamilton now led on old tyres, lapping around 3sec slower than Bottas who would be set to catch him within three or four laps. It became very obvious by around lap 19 that Hamilton’s softs were close to the end of their life. The wear rate was confirmed by how little rubber had been left on Bottas’ discarded tyres. With a 53-lap race distance, a medium tyre that lasted only a couple of laps longer than the soft – and a very slow hard compound – it essentially forced Mercedes onto a two-stop with both cars.

Even Hamilton admitted as much:

The medium-shod Mercedes were able to stay out longer, Bottas coming in on lap 36, putting Hamilton into a temporary lead. “I did think about staying out at this point,” admitted Hamilton, “but by that time I’d already pushed so much to close the gap to Seb.”


Even if Hamilton had stayed out there was no way, in the remaining 12 laps he’d have been able to hang onto the lead given how great the tyre deg was. He’d soon have been losing up to 3sec a lap to his newer-tyred team-mate who would have passed with ease.

Merc dropped the ball on Hamilton finishing second when they failed to utilize the undercut.

By the 14th lap Hamilton was within undercut range. Mercedes was tempted, but at this point was still thinking in terms of trying to one-stop Hamilton. It might not have made that decision if it didn’t already have its race-winning options covered by Bottas. In hindsight, an aggressive nailed-on two-stop would have served Hamilton better and he’d have undercut Vettel at around about this point.

dans79
206
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by dans79 » Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:34 pm

zibby43 wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:07 am
Even Hamilton admitted as much:

The medium-shod Mercedes were able to stay out longer, Bottas coming in on lap 36, putting Hamilton into a temporary lead. “I did think about staying out at this point,” admitted Hamilton, “but by that time I’d already pushed so much to close the gap to Seb.”
This quote does not give the entire story.

https://www.racefans.net/2019/10/13/ham ... tegy-f-up/
Asked whether he could have reached the end without a second pit stop, Hamilton said: “With better guidance I think I probably could have.”

Hamilton ran a strong pace at the beginning of his second stint in an unsuccessful attempt to pull far enough ahead of Sebastian Vettel to be able to pit and come out ahead of the Ferrari.

“They said, when they put the tyre on, that we are going [to] a two-stop because the degradation is high. So then, the direction I was given in terms of having to try and close the gap to Seb, every time I was having to close this gap, used the tyres quite a lot. In how I was using them, there was no way I was going to make it to the end.

“If I had, from the beginning, said we’re just going to eke it out and just see if we could manage it, then I could have just driven differently and, potentially, held it to the end. But [that’s] all in hindsight.”



And honestly, I agree with Lewis.

If he had held back in his first and second stints instead of pushing to close up on Vettel and then sitting in his dirty air, I think he could have made a one stopper work. He might not have got P1, but I'm pretty sure he would have gotten P2.

Lewis is better at stretching tires than Bottas, but I think the team won't let him do that when he is behind, because they are always so overly concerned about fairness. And frankly its BS in my opinion because when Bottas is behind they have let him pit first several times. For example in Spain he pitted first twice.

In general it seems when Lewis is P1 the team is more likely to do things to help him get in front of the competition, or catch up to Lewis. When Lewis is behind, they don't seem to do anything to help him.

Juzh
443
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:45 am

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by Juzh » Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:34 pm

cokata wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:25 pm
Juzh wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:55 pm
10 minutes of hamilton chasing vettel towards the end. 349 kmh at one point :shock: :
https://streamable.com/0j6t6
https://streamable.com/0j6t6

fastest lap - new lap record. no uselss commentary, just engine sounds
https://streamable.com/yk5jz
https://streamable.com/yk5jz
Thanks Juhz, you are the MVP with those videos.

Can we get a similar telemetry from Vettel's ferrari when he was defending, i am curious to see what at the top speed and how much clipping there is when the PU is turned up to 11. That Ferrari is a rocket!
thanks

here's vettel onboard
https://streamable.com/codgx

zibby43
262
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:16 am

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by zibby43 » Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:56 pm

dans79 wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:34 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:07 am
Even Hamilton admitted as much:

The medium-shod Mercedes were able to stay out longer, Bottas coming in on lap 36, putting Hamilton into a temporary lead. “I did think about staying out at this point,” admitted Hamilton, “but by that time I’d already pushed so much to close the gap to Seb.”
This quote does not give the entire story.

https://www.racefans.net/2019/10/13/ham ... tegy-f-up/
Asked whether he could have reached the end without a second pit stop, Hamilton said: “With better guidance I think I probably could have.”

Hamilton ran a strong pace at the beginning of his second stint in an unsuccessful attempt to pull far enough ahead of Sebastian Vettel to be able to pit and come out ahead of the Ferrari.

“They said, when they put the tyre on, that we are going [to] a two-stop because the degradation is high. So then, the direction I was given in terms of having to try and close the gap to Seb, every time I was having to close this gap, used the tyres quite a lot. In how I was using them, there was no way I was going to make it to the end.

“If I had, from the beginning, said we’re just going to eke it out and just see if we could manage it, then I could have just driven differently and, potentially, held it to the end. But [that’s] all in hindsight.”



And honestly, I agree with Lewis.

If he had held back in his first and second stints instead of pushing to close up on Vettel and then sitting in his dirty air, I think he could have made a one stopper work. He might not have got P1, but I'm pretty sure he would have gotten P2.

Lewis is better at stretching tires than Bottas, but I think the team won't let him do that when he is behind, because they are always so overly concerned about fairness. And frankly its BS in my opinion because when Bottas is behind they have let him pit first several times. For example in Spain he pitted first twice.

In general it seems when Lewis is P1 the team is more likely to do things to help him get in front of the competition, or catch up to Lewis. When Lewis is behind, they don't seem to do anything to help him.


My point was that he was not making it to the end on the Mediums, with how they had been run up until the point he ultimately pitted. A number of people in the thread were arguing that he could have easily held off Bottas for P1. Which was laughable to me. I think he would've found it difficult to maintain P2, at the very least.

If he would've babied them from the start, that's another story.

But that's a "what-if" - and I did address the other "what-if" at the end of the post, which involved a much better strategy for Hamilton by undercutting VET.

cokata
3
Joined: Fri May 16, 2014 6:50 pm

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by cokata » Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:16 am

Juzh wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 6:34 pm
cokata wrote:
Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:25 pm
Juzh wrote:
Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:55 pm
10 minutes of hamilton chasing vettel towards the end. 349 kmh at one point :shock: :
https://streamable.com/0j6t6
https://streamable.com/0j6t6

fastest lap - new lap record. no uselss commentary, just engine sounds
https://streamable.com/yk5jz
https://streamable.com/yk5jz
Thanks Juhz, you are the MVP with those videos.

Can we get a similar telemetry from Vettel's ferrari when he was defending, i am curious to see what at the top speed and how much clipping there is when the PU is turned up to 11. That Ferrari is a rocket!
thanks

here's vettel onboard
https://streamable.com/codgx
https://streamable.com/codgx
Much appreciated Juzh.

On every non DRS straight the Ferrari roughly matches the Merc in top speed despite the massive tow Hamilton is getting, and there is much less de-rating. Prior the the introduction of PU3 they were barely any quicker in race modes, only over 1 lap.

And also listening to the radio he was given some higher modes like "spark 4" but only on the final lap was he given K1, which their overtake button, and we know they hava K1 plus, which is even more powerful.

Morteza
1888
User avatar
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:23 pm
Location: Bushehr, Iran

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by Morteza » Wed Oct 16, 2019 5:59 pm

"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

drunkf1fan
46
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2015 2:34 am

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by drunkf1fan » Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:03 pm

zibby43 wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:56 pm

My point was that he was not making it to the end on the Mediums, with how they had been run up until the point he ultimately pitted. A number of people in the thread were arguing that he could have easily held off Bottas for P1. Which was laughable to me. I think he would've found it difficult to maintain P2, at the very least.

If he would've babied them from the start, that's another story.

But that's a "what-if" - and I did address the other "what-if" at the end of the post, which involved a much better strategy for Hamilton by undercutting VET.
Pushing a hard pace doesn't ultimately destroy tire life, if they tires were within temp then they were likely okay.

Also tire deg is a complete unknown. Several cars had drastically lower tire deg as the race progressed which shouldn't be surprising as having been pressure washed by a typhoon it was about as green as a track can get but later in the race with rubber down a lot of cars were going longer without losing as much tire life at all like Ricciardo, Sainz, etc.


Hamilton saying they could/couldn't make it is somewhat irrelevant. Unless he wants to continue a public argument with the team by making a very public stance that he could definitely have made it to the end then the diplomatic and sensible stance is to put it behind you and tell the media there wasn't any alternative.

As for tires that can't go as long, only the first stint was really at all slow. In general, and look up any track on race fans, the overall pace per stint is set at the start of a stint. They didn't all go 3 seconds a lap faster but by the end of his stint he had lost 3 seconds of lap time they were in the 94.5-95s lap range from lap 3 to lap 14, Hamilton did one 95.6, then a 94.7 and two 95.2/3s before he pitted. The other guys started their stint at roughly 93s(Bottas did one low 92 then dropped down as obviously that was pushing it on temps. Ham started off at a 92.9 or and before he pit he did a 93.1 before pitting, in fact Vettel went slower than him on that lap.

There was absolutely no indication from pretty much anyone in the whole race of major tire drop off or major tire wear. Ricciardo did 29 laps on the medium and he started on them, he did 22 laps on the soft no problem. Hamilton's tires hadn't given up after 21 laps on the soft at the start.

It's just that the tire temps at the start on heavy fuel and green track meant an abnormally large delta for the fast teams at the front before the first stop. After that point and for most other teams there simply wasn't that level of lap time improvement.

I'd say most data suggests he could likely pretty easily have gone to the end and that his lap times weren't at all an issue and were no where near slow enough, nor Bottas and Vettel anywhere near fast enough to make an easy pass on him.

The most critically important part of this is, there was a full 40 second gap behind Vettel and 10 laps to go. If Bottas catches and passes both.... who cares? If the lap times truly drop off, who cares, what's he going to do, come out 20 seconds behind Vettel with 5 laps to go and end up third? This is a track where track position is king. There was little evidence of dropping lap times, Bottas or vettel gaining or a reason why he couldn't go 10 laps longer.
You're telling me the softs can go 21 laps without any real lap time loss and the mediums couldn't go further even though Renault with meh tire wear did 29 laps on a heavy fuel with a green track and the car with the best tire wear can't do two laps more on a rubbered in track with a light car.

It was a nonsense decision to bring him in, he was ahead through going longer and trying a one stop and then when it was clear that was going to beat not only Vettel but Bottas easily, they dropped him back to third which frankly is a joke of a decision.

izzy
32
User avatar
Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by izzy » Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:19 pm

drunkf1fan wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:03 pm
It was a nonsense decision to bring him in, he was ahead through going longer and trying a one stop and then when it was clear that was going to beat not only Vettel but Bottas easily, they dropped him back to third which frankly is a joke of a decision.
yes if he could do 22 laps on Softs on full tanks he could do 31 on Mediums with half fuel couldn't he, as long as he started the stint aiming for that. But part of it was the team were managing Valtteri to take it easy, as much as possible, just racing Seb, so then to let Lewis attack him with a 1-stop wouldn't have been fair either. Not that i liked it, but there was a reason, even if they didn't execute it very well. They decided that as soon as Valtteri was first and Lewis 4th i think

LM10
58
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:07 pm

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by LM10 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:10 pm

Mercedes just wanted Bottas to win, that's it. I know Hamilton and Bottas could have switched positions later on and secured 1-2, but they wanted to avoid such an awkward situation. There would have been no single reason to switch the drivers other than fairness or making Bottas happy like a child. He would have not even celebrated such a win. He was happy after how things went as we can hear on team radio after the race and that's what Mercedes was aiming at.

jumpingfish
4
User avatar
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:19 pm
Location: Ru

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by jumpingfish » Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:11 am

So much words about "Happy Bottas" "gift/present for Bottas". He was first, Hamilton third losing time behind Leclerc and then behind Vettel. 8+sec gap between Bottas and Hamilton, why Bottas should lose his first position with 2 stops vs 1 stop for Ham?

GPR-A
88
User avatar
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2018 12:08 pm

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by GPR-A » Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:22 am

jumpingfish wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:11 am
He was first, Hamilton third losing time behind Leclerc and then behind Vettel. 8+sec gap between Bottas and Hamilton, why Bottas should lose his first position with 2 stops vs 1 stop for Ham?
If Bottas was a Ferrari, what would Mercedes have done with Hamilton? Still 2 stop? That answers why Bottas should lose his first position with 2 stops to Lewis with 1 stop. Lewis could have comfortably kept a two stopping car behind him, while he was on one stopper.

jumpingfish
4
User avatar
Joined: Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:19 pm
Location: Ru

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by jumpingfish » Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:38 am

GPR -A wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:22 am
jumpingfish wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:11 am
He was first, Hamilton third losing time behind Leclerc and then behind Vettel. 8+sec gap between Bottas and Hamilton, why Bottas should lose his first position with 2 stops vs 1 stop for Ham?
If Bottas was a Ferrari, what would Mercedes have done with Hamilton? Still 2 stop? That answers why Bottas should lose his first position with 2 stops to Lewis with 1 stop. Lewis could have comfortably kept a two stopping car behind him, while he was on one stopper.
Bottas is not a Ferrari, he is Mercedes driver. If they want to make finnish SecondChello on every circuit, then no need to tell us about "they can fight without crashes". If he is a butler, then no problem. But when they declare: we support first driver on the track, then Bottas must win the race without changing on the pit-stops. Everyone remember Singapore, when shameful strategic mistakes for Ham slowed down Bottas to block Albon or Sochi-2018. No need to pull Ham for victory everytime, they made enough to win WDC.

drunkf1fan
46
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2015 2:34 am

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by drunkf1fan » Fri Oct 18, 2019 11:52 am

jumpingfish wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:11 am
So much words about "Happy Bottas" "gift/present for Bottas". He was first, Hamilton third losing time behind Leclerc and then behind Vettel. 8+sec gap between Bottas and Hamilton, why Bottas should lose his first position with 2 stops vs 1 stop for Ham?
If Bottas wanted to stay out for a one stop he could have and didn't. He was given the choice to pit on a two stop and that's seemingly what his side of the garage decided for him, keeping in mind that almost everywhere he has significantly worse tire wear and on longer stints in races with less stops he usually does see significant lap time drop compared to Hamilton. If someone does a one stop then in general their overall pace will be slower. If they are doing a one stop you have to make a 22 second gap over the race to beat them, so in effect Bottas was never ahead of Hamilton in the race.

There is a huge difference to say Singapore where Hamilton led and asked to pit and the team didn't, to Bottas pitting onto a two stop and Hamilton's side of the garage doing a one stop. Hamilton produced the pace and performance required to win, Bottas never created the gap he needed nor closed the gap on Hamilton after his second stop.

The question is why should Hamilton lose his fairly gained first place through risking going long just because Bottas was ahead earlier, the answer is, without him being screwed up strategy or without them prioritising Hamilton's pitstop ahead of Bottas's there is no reason to do so.

Morteza
1888
User avatar
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:23 pm
Location: Bushehr, Iran

Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by Morteza » Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:06 pm

"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare