Many young drivers from F2 are struggling for F1 graduation nowadays

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DChemTech
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Re: Many young drivers from F2 are struggling for F1 graduation nowadays

Post by DChemTech » Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:15 am

JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:58 am
marmer wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:36 am
I actually think a real issue with f2 is allowing older drivers to hang around a bit too long 2 seasons should be the limit to keep new talent coming up. You don't want older drivers staying in f2 forever until they win a championship. Nor do you want F1 drivers dropping back down.
Why not? Wouldn't it better to have big name drivers in F2 to increase the profile of the class?

This way F2 drivers and teams could find actual commercial sponsorship.
But for most of these drivers, they are 'high profile' because they are in F1 - and the most high profile drivers are the ones that are successful in F1, not the ones deemed to be demoted to F2 again. So I have strong doubts that it will boost the profile of F2... but as mentioned by others, having drivers stick around in F2 will simply move the problem by reducing throughput there (thus making F3 --> F2 the bottleneck).

Raleigh
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Re: Many young drivers from F2 are struggling for F1 graduation nowadays

Post by Raleigh » Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:21 pm

To be blunt, there are years where the F2 title is a battle between outstanding stars of the future and years where more modest talents win by merit of experience and lack of competition.

Unfortunately 2019 falls more into the later category. Nyck is in his 3rd year of F2 and all top 3 from last year moved up to F1 (Nyck was 4th). Nearest competition is Latifi (not highly rated).

As such he still ranks below Russell/Norris/Albon and the best option available is FE.

Manoah2u
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Re: Many young drivers from F2 are struggling for F1 graduation nowadays

Post by Manoah2u » Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:43 pm

Maritimer wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:31 am
F1 doesnt need to do anything
this.

even when there's a new team to come into play in 2021 (first see then believe),
there's the thing of, putting it bluntly 'who cares'.

Why be bothered with F2 drivers not graduating to F1.
it's not like it should be a forced or standard process.
that means excisting drivers need to go. why?

I'd still rather have Kimi around then some new unproven douche that will be out before 2 seasons are done.
Take trash drivers like Palmer.

Any F2 driver going into F1 means somebody should leave.
Again, why? we have pretty great drivers around.

If i were to sum up some drivers that are on their way out:

- Grosjean (surprised he is contracted by haas for 2020)
- Hulkenberg (without a drive for 2020 and i think that'll stay)
- Kimi (still to stay but also will come to a natural end)
- Kubica (no 2020 drive and things look grim)
- Giovanazzi (no talent)
- Gasly (no talent)
- Kvyat (placeholder)

on the 'long term'

i can see Perez out too, and Magnussen.

but in the first case, that's 7 (!) drivers making room in the short future.
with a new team in 2021 that means 9 seats available.

now, let's concider a few things though;
Hulk is replaced by Ocon, so that's one less.
Kubica will probably be replaced by latifie, another less.

so that's 7 spots more or less.
If Giovanazzi is out, due to having no talent, then perhaps Kubica goes in.
that means 1 guy out less, meaning 6 spots to fill.

Thing is, it really isn't so 'grim'. And i don't think Vettel or Hamilton are gonna stay in f1 for another 10 years.
5 years tops for both, and that is only if there is a team change.

Thing is, what 'talent' is coming in from F2?
And how talented are they really that current drivers 'should' be replaced?

Let F2 be a F2. Let F1 be F1. if people are talented enough, they will make it to F1.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

SuperDrummer
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Re: Many young drivers from F2 are struggling for F1 graduation nowadays

Post by SuperDrummer » Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:03 pm

marmer wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:36 am
I actually think a real issue with f2 is allowing older drivers to hang around a bit too long 2 seasons should be the limit to keep new talent coming up. You don't want older drivers staying in f2 forever until they win a championship. Nor do you want F1 drivers dropping back down.
Actually this is the opposite to what GP2 management dreams of. They want drivers to spend money in their championships as long as possible, 2 years minimum. The plan is spoiled by some drivers who are way too talented - like Hulkenberg, Russell, Norris and so on.

De Vries is just not good enough for F1 IMHO. Still he can be competitive elsewhere.

JordanMugen
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Re: Many young drivers from F2 are struggling for F1 graduation nowadays

Post by JordanMugen » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:56 am

Manoah2u wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:43 pm
- Giovanazzi (no talent)
- Gasly (no talent)
- Kvyat (placeholder)
Yikes! And some people say Helmut Marko is harsh. :shock:

JordanMugen
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Re: Many young drivers from F2 are struggling for F1 graduation nowadays

Post by JordanMugen » Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:59 am

SuperDrummer wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:03 pm
They want drivers to spend money in their championships as long as possible, 2 years minimum.
For what you get, a car that performs very close to an Indycar or Super Formula car that cost two to five times as much for a season, I think the cost of F2 (1m Euro per season?) is reasonable. Albeit it is quite a bit more expensive than Formula Renault 3.5 V8 (350,000-500,000 Euro per season?) for whatever reason.

Would it be possible to reduce the cost of F2 down to that of Formula V8 3.5? :?:

I note that GP2 organisers specifically created GP3 to damage the prospects of Formula V8 3.5 in attracting entrants.

Perhaps it is unncessary to have a series at F2 level and the GP3/F3 car is already fast enough to train drivers for F1...? :?:

marmer
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Re: Many young drivers from F2 are struggling for F1 graduation nowadays

Post by marmer » Sat Oct 12, 2019 8:10 am

[/quote]

Perhaps it is unncessary to have a series at F2 level and the GP3/F3 car is already fast enough to train drivers for F1...? :?:
[/quote]

well speaking as a normal average human who thinks himself to be half decent at driving games i really struggled going up to f1 level on a game like project cars. fine on the f1 game but thats not as realistic as some. i really felt the pace difference if you suddenly move up to f1 from f3 or a really fast road car the pace is that much of a shock while f2 is a nice gap to make it eaiser

SuperDrummer
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Re: Many young drivers from F2 are struggling for F1 graduation nowadays

Post by SuperDrummer » Thu Oct 17, 2019 4:48 am

JordanMugen wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:59 am
SuperDrummer wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:03 pm
They want drivers to spend money in their championships as long as possible, 2 years minimum.
For what you get, a car that performs very close to an Indycar or Super Formula car that cost two to five times as much for a season, I think the cost of F2 (1m Euro per season?) is reasonable. Albeit it is quite a bit more expensive than Formula Renault 3.5 V8 (350,000-500,000 Euro per season?) for whatever reason.

Would it be possible to reduce the cost of F2 down to that of Formula V8 3.5? :?:
Hm... A little bit of yes and no really. According to my information GP2 costs about 2m Euro per season. I have no idea regarding SuperFormula budgets and mileage, but if we compare GP2 with Indycar, I would guesstimate that the price per km might be even lower in American series. So yes, formally speaking GP2 is cheaper, but you get what you've paid for, nothing more.
GP2 car is definitely a good one. It's a proper Dallara. But the key thing here is the competition format - both racing and testing wise. Drivers just don't have enough kilometers per season. The same with tyres - they disappear immediately, and you need a decent amount of test days with decent amount of tyres to get your head around them. Especially if you are not ready for the series yet - and everybody who is not under top3 in F3 (or under top5 in a really strong year) is not ready. That would be the cheaper way. Now the drivers have to use the more expensive way - spend several seasons in a series where they learn two things - how to save the tyres (it's not managing IMHO, it's just saving) and how to press DRS button. Is it worth 4 to 6 million to learn how to press a button?
JordanMugen wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:59 am
I note that GP2 organisers specifically created GP3 to damage the prospects of Formula V8 3.5 in attracting entrants.
Actually they created GP3 as direct competitor for F3, not Renault 3.5. Renault 3.5 was "the last step before F1" together with GP2.
And the first GP3 generation was a disaster - yes, two champions made it to F1, but this car didn't let the drivers learn. They could only show what they've learned before. This is why drivers didn't want to pay for this series and some teams had to offer free drives in one of their cars. They were obliged to race with 3 cars and it was cheaper for them to pay for one of their drivers than to pay the fine for failing to enter 3 cars.
JordanMugen wrote:
Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:59 am
Perhaps it is unncessary to have a series at F2 level and the GP3/F3 car is already fast enough to train drivers for F1...? :?:
I firmly believe that both GP3 and GP2 don't do much in terms of drivers training for F1. Proper F3, the old one, does. F3 has good aero, complicated setup sheet and no engine power. Driver needs to be very precise both in his driving and his feedback for the engineers. At the same time tyres do let him learn how to drive. There is no need to doubt "was I quicker on this lap because the changes in my driving brought improvement or I just took more life out of my tyres". As soon as a driver is quick in F3, he is basically ready for F1. Some minor adjustments or fine tuning might be necessary, but these things are really minor.
For this fine tuning drivers can go to either GP3 or GP2 to get the idea about the tyres. And at the seme time they can show F1 bosses what they've learned - if some of the bosses don't do their homework for whatever reason and don't know who is good in F3. A brilliant driver hardly needs more than 1 season for any of these series.

FW17
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Re: Many young drivers from F2 are struggling for F1 graduation nowadays

Post by FW17 » Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:56 am

Wonder why FIA / 3.5 promoters did not work together to create the series as a step between F3 and F2

Engine performance wise it would have been perfect
F4 - 300 hp
F3 - 400 hp
F3.5 - 500 hp
F2 - 600 hp
F1 - 800+160 hp

SuperDrummer
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Re: Many young drivers from F2 are struggling for F1 graduation nowadays

Post by SuperDrummer » Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:17 pm

FW17 wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:56 am
Wonder why FIA / 3.5 promoters did not work together to create the series as a step between F3 and F2

Engine performance wise it would have been perfect
F4 - 300 hp
F3 - 400 hp
F3.5 - 500 hp
F2 - 600 hp
F1 - 800+160 hp
GP2 and WSR were direct competitors.

Engine wise the ladder is a bit different.
F4 - 160 hp
F3 proper - 210-230 hp
F3 Regional - 270 hp
GP3 aka FIA F3 - 380 hp
GP2 aka FIA F2 - 620 hp.
And drivers just don't need any 'intermediate' steps between, say, 230 hp and 620 hp. As long as they are good in 230 hp car, they adapt to 620 hp straightaway.

FW17
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Re: Many young drivers from F2 are struggling for F1 graduation nowadays

Post by FW17 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:56 am

SuperDrummer wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:17 pm
FW17 wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:56 am
Wonder why FIA / 3.5 promoters did not work together to create the series as a step between F3 and F2

Engine performance wise it would have been perfect
F4 - 300 hp
F3 - 400 hp
F3.5 - 500 hp
F2 - 600 hp
F1 - 800+160 hp
GP2 and WSR were direct competitors.

Engine wise the ladder is a bit different.
F4 - 160 hp
F3 proper - 210-230 hp
F3 Regional - 270 hp
GP3 aka FIA F3 - 380 hp
GP2 aka FIA F2 - 620 hp.
And drivers just don't need any 'intermediate' steps between, say, 230 hp and 620 hp. As long as they are good in 230 hp car, they adapt to 620 hp straightaway.
It is not about need, but rather the additional track time they get to experience different cars, tracks, drivers and engineers.

It would be a better option than spending 2 seasons in F2 paying a 1 million a season to 1 season in WSR with 1/2 a million and the next with F2

NathanOlder
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Re: Many young drivers from F2 are struggling for F1 graduation nowadays

Post by NathanOlder » Fri Oct 18, 2019 8:02 am

FW17 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 3:56 am
SuperDrummer wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:17 pm
FW17 wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:56 am
Wonder why FIA / 3.5 promoters did not work together to create the series as a step between F3 and F2

Engine performance wise it would have been perfect
F4 - 300 hp
F3 - 400 hp
F3.5 - 500 hp
F2 - 600 hp
F1 - 800+160 hp
GP2 and WSR were direct competitors.

Engine wise the ladder is a bit different.
F4 - 160 hp
F3 proper - 210-230 hp
F3 Regional - 270 hp
GP3 aka FIA F3 - 380 hp
GP2 aka FIA F2 - 620 hp.
And drivers just don't need any 'intermediate' steps between, say, 230 hp and 620 hp. As long as they are good in 230 hp car, they adapt to 620 hp straightaway.
It is not about need, but rather the additional track time they get to experience different cars, tracks, drivers and engineers.

It would be a better option than spending 2 seasons in F2 paying a 1 million a season to 1 season in WSR with 1/2 a million and the next with F2
But wouldnt that end up with more average drivers hanging around. The top drivers rise to the top usually very quick. Look at Norris and Russell, EuroF3 / F3 champions in 2017. Take the big step up to F2 power, they finish 1st and 2nd in the championship. Take the big step up to F1 and both perform excellent.

If you have the skills, surely theres no need for extra steps ?
GoLandoGo
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Does anyone play F1 2019 on Ps4, Now setting up a league at

https://rapidpixelracing.com

FW17
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Re: Many young drivers from F2 are struggling for F1 graduation nowadays

Post by FW17 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:13 am

I was proposing an ideal ladder, not the one which a prodigy driver should take.


The more series that the FIA have the better it is for racing weekends in Europe.
Right now an event other than F1, looks rather sparce.

DChemTech
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Re: Many young drivers from F2 are struggling for F1 graduation nowadays

Post by DChemTech » Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:32 am

FW17 wrote:
Fri Oct 18, 2019 9:13 am
I was proposing an ideal ladder, not the one which a prodigy driver should take.


The more series that the FIA have the better it is for racing weekends in Europe.
Right now an event other than F1, looks rather sparce.
Maybe, but how much demand is there for other racing weekends? Would people line up to go to a stand alone f2 or f3 race?

FW17
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Re: Many young drivers from F2 are struggling for F1 graduation nowadays

Post by FW17 » Fri Oct 18, 2019 10:30 am

Yeah but FIA clubs need to host some more revenue generating events other than just F1