2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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FW17
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:40 pm
But you want them shorter, so less floor and less downforce = slower.
They could have allowed for floor to start more forward (like the front axil line) which would have shortened the car without loosing performance

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godlameroso
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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What effect do the bargeboards have exactly that will cost teams 3 seconds of lap time? They are more than flow conditioners, they certainly generate downforce on their own. In fact that is how they are so effective at flow conditioning. If you look at them, they don't look like aerofoils the boomerangs seem to be creating lift, however one thing is clear. The general shape of the bargeboards forces air to flow faster underneath the car than over and around the bargeboards. Air has to outwash over the bargeboards, while under and around the periphery, the air flows much faster. Speed differential = pressure differential, they are essentially ground effect wings, combined with the side pod end fences they have enough surface area to match either front or rear wing, and possibly the diffuser.

By removing this piece from the equation teams will have to rely on only the front wing, rear wing, and diffuser. In essence the new regulations remove a wing from the car while making the main one(the floor) bigger and more effective. The question is how much freedom do they have in that area? One of the reason a manufacturer deal is so essential to victory is that the rear end of the car(transmission, power unit, ancillaries, fuel cell) all take up downforce disturbing volume. If you are the engine and chassis manufacturer you can tailor all the rear end parts to take up as little space as possible freeing up more critical downforce producing real estate. Furthermore you have a bigger budget, and more resources to make this happen.

One of the reasons the field closed up in the late V8 era was because the diffuser had been made smaller, that and blown diffusers meant that the diffuser didn't make as big a difference as other areas of the car. So the rich big teams which could increase the volume of their diffuser due to better packaging lost out.

This year and last, Mercedes made strides in their downforce because they kept squeezing more space in the rear end of the car. This gives the diffuser a huge performance advantage, especially these large diffusers that have the potential to generate incredible downforce but are hampered by bodywork directly in front of it.

Will this change going forward into 2021? Probably not.
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toraabe
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:40 pm
Holm86 wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:50 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:01 am


If you want them tricky to drive then making the rear tyres less effective will do that. Doing lots of other stuff instead to try to make them tricky to drive seems silly when it can be so easily achieved.
I want them to be trickier, not slower. We could just as well go back to bicycle tires and no aero then
But you want them shorter, so less floor and less downforce = slower.

No. Have you forgot the venturi tunnels

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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toraabe wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:51 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:40 pm
Holm86 wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:50 am


I want them to be trickier, not slower. We could just as well go back to bicycle tires and no aero then
But you want them shorter, so less floor and less downforce = slower.

No. Have you forgot the venturi tunnels
These aren't skirted cars, so the tunnels aren't as powerful as you think. The "tunnels" are behaving more like narrow, big diffusers. The area between the forward VGs and the throat of the diffuser is still important for downforce levels.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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strad
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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The barge boards push the air off to the sides. Outwash. And that creates the disturbed air that hinders passing. :wink:
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
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djos
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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With Venturi tunnels you don’t want the air pushed to the sides of the car, you want as much as possible fed into the tunnels. Imo barge boards would be counter productive if used with the 2021 Design.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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jjn9128
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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strad wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:40 pm
The barge boards push the air off to the sides. Outwash. And that creates the disturbed air that hinders passing. :wink:
The primary aim of bargeboards is to create downwash which increases the effective angle of attach of the floor.
djos wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:47 pm
With Venturi tunnels you don’t want the air pushed to the sides of the car, you want as much as possible fed into the tunnels. Imo barge boards would be counter productive if used with the 2021 Design.
The vanes at the front edge of the floor are quite aggressively cambered outwards too!
Image
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djos
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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jjn9128 wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:02 pm
djos wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:47 pm
With Venturi tunnels you don’t want the air pushed to the sides of the car, you want as much as possible fed into the tunnels. Imo barge boards would be counter productive if used with the 2021 Design.
The vanes at the front edge of the floor are quite aggressively cambered outwards too!
https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... -floor.jpg
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression those aggressive vanes were designed to create vortices to seal the sides of the tunnel and increase their effectiveness without resorting to moving skirts?
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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The 2021 vanes are VGs aren't they? Intended to set up a vortex that then runs under the floor. The vortex will generate downforce by being a region of low pressure on the underside of the floor - this is seen on the 2021 floor rendering. The vortex will presumably help with flow attachment in to the diffuser, so long as it doesn't burst before the throat.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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maunde
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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jjn9128 wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:02 pm
strad wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:40 pm
The barge boards push the air off to the sides. Outwash. And that creates the disturbed air that hinders passing. :wink:
The primary aim of bargeboards is to create downwash which increases the effective angle of attach of the floor.
djos wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:47 pm
With Venturi tunnels you don’t want the air pushed to the sides of the car, you want as much as possible fed into the tunnels. Imo barge boards would be counter productive if used with the 2021 Design.
The vanes at the front edge of the floor are quite aggressively cambered outwards too!
https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... -floor.jpg

Do you have a source for this image?
A kiwi looking to fly like McLaren.

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maunde
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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jjn9128 wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:02 pm
strad wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:40 pm
The barge boards push the air off to the sides. Outwash. And that creates the disturbed air that hinders passing. :wink:
The primary aim of bargeboards is to create downwash which increases the effective angle of attach of the floor.
djos wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:47 pm
With Venturi tunnels you don’t want the air pushed to the sides of the car, you want as much as possible fed into the tunnels. Imo barge boards would be counter productive if used with the 2021 Design.
The vanes at the front edge of the floor are quite aggressively cambered outwards too!
https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... -floor.jpg
The large concavity at the throat of the diffuser is interesting - I wonder how much this will cause separation at this location? Would be interested to see how the vortices created by the vanes affect this separation.
A kiwi looking to fly like McLaren.

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strad
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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The primary aim of bargeboards is to create downwash which increases the effective angle of attach of the floor.
I would have sworn that I read they are flow conditioners to smooth the air flowing into the sidepod inlets and also out away from the sides(outwash).
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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maunde
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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strad wrote:
Thu Nov 14, 2019 5:24 am
The primary aim of bargeboards is to create downwash which increases the effective angle of attach of the floor.
I would have sworn that I read they are flow conditioners to smooth the air flowing into the sidepod inlets and also out away from the sides(outwash).
To my knowledge, they condition different aspects of upstream flow to provide the following: Downwash, outwash and ensuring that the flow will remain attached when flowing around the sidepods and past the coke bottle.

Different aspects of the bargeboard will provide different conditioning of the flow.

They may have a net effect of causing downwash however. Obviously, too much downwash will cause net local-lift
A kiwi looking to fly like McLaren.

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godlameroso
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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djos wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:09 pm
jjn9128 wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:02 pm
djos wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:47 pm
With Venturi tunnels you don’t want the air pushed to the sides of the car, you want as much as possible fed into the tunnels. Imo barge boards would be counter productive if used with the 2021 Design.
The vanes at the front edge of the floor are quite aggressively cambered outwards too!
https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... -floor.jpg
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression those aggressive vanes were designed to create vortices to seal the sides of the tunnel and increase their effectiveness without resorting to moving skirts?
Air is quite full of itself, in an arrogant way, to understand air, you must also be full of yourself. Then and only then will you understand airflow, and why it's all based on being full of oneself. If you try to deny air the ability to be full of itself, it will lash out, and do everything in its power to once again be full of itself. It cannot be any other way. Air you see is a prima donna!

So when you see deflectors, they are causing air to not be full of itself, by pushing airflow out the sides of the car, you create a low pressure zone at the throat of the floor tunnels. Air being full of itself will instinctively try to fill the void left by the deflectors.

In other words the deflectors are there to encourage airflow through the floor tunnels because either side of the tunnels the pressure is higher than at the throat, and air will go to the place where it is less full of itself.
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godlameroso
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Re: 2021 Aero Thread

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jjn9128 wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:02 pm
strad wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:40 pm
The barge boards push the air off to the sides. Outwash. And that creates the disturbed air that hinders passing. :wink:
The primary aim of bargeboards is to create downwash which increases the effective angle of attach of the floor.
djos wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 10:47 pm
With Venturi tunnels you don’t want the air pushed to the sides of the car, you want as much as possible fed into the tunnels. Imo barge boards would be counter productive if used with the 2021 Design.
The vanes at the front edge of the floor are quite aggressively cambered outwards too!
https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... -floor.jpg
Looking at the 2021 concept given the narrower front tires, weaker front wing, weaker rear wing, and much stronger diffuser and floor leading section, I see huge balance issues. Massive oversteer followed by massive understeer at speed, a set up nightmare getting the ride height correct at the right speed ranges. Not to mention that ride height will be massively critical, and getting the rake of the cars will make or break your season. The floor will generate most of the downforce, and the AOA that floor works at will be even more important than before.
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