Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Bill
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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The difference between used engine and fresh is less 1/100 of a second look at Charles and Vettel. Merc can't be compared to torro rosso is ridiculous

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MtthsMlw
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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RZS10 wrote:
Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:46 pm
Apperently the highest they could give Lewis was strat mode 5, wonder how far away that is from full pelt.
From my observations it's the highest strat mode used during the race. Paired ofc with some HPP setting and use of the overtake button and probably some more settings.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:33 am
Bill wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:46 am
Lewis had a Mercedes car a championship winning machine and very fresh tires and couldn't pass Gasly. In Austria when they lost in high altitude they blamed the temperatures not the pu .
Lewis has used 3 engines for the season, Gasly has used 7. The unit in Gasly's car was fresher and he was using everything it had - he said in the cool down room that he was holding the overtake button the whole way.
This is not naturally aspirated 22,000 rpm engines any more. There is not much of a difference on power between new and old engines. In naturally aspirated engines you can do much to make up for blow-by.. In turbo engine you can use just that little bit more of boost.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:44 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:33 am
Bill wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:46 am
Lewis had a Mercedes car a championship winning machine and very fresh tires and couldn't pass Gasly. In Austria when they lost in high altitude they blamed the temperatures not the pu .
Lewis has used 3 engines for the season, Gasly has used 7. The unit in Gasly's car was fresher and he was using everything it had - he said in the cool down room that he was holding the overtake button the whole way.
This is not naturally aspirated 22,000 rpm engines any more. There is not much of a difference on power between new and old engines. In naturally aspirated engines you can do much to make up for blow-by.. In turbo engine you can use just that little bit more of boost.
The fresher engine can be more safely run in higher performance modes for longer than a rules-compliant engine that has already done most of its expected working life. All of the engines are run in a performance-limited mode for most of their lives with periods of high performance output rationed by the teams for reliability reasons.

This is why the teams tell the driver what strat mode to use, and why the drivers ask for more power - they're saying "give me permission to run the engine at its maximum" because they know that the engines won't last for the requisite number of events if they just turn them up as and when they see fit.

The engines have an allocation of high output that the teams can use. The engine can't be run flat out constantly or it will fail. It's possible that an engine near the end of its expected life can't be run in maximum mode at all - the team may have used up the allocation in earlier races in order to secure more points then. It's a trade off.

As an example, remember Brasil '17 when Hamilton started from the pit lane with a fresh engine and the team just said "go for it" and gave him all of the engine modes he wanted? That wouldn't have been possible with a 5- or 6-race old engine.
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LM10
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:59 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:44 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:33 am

Lewis has used 3 engines for the season, Gasly has used 7. The unit in Gasly's car was fresher and he was using everything it had - he said in the cool down room that he was holding the overtake button the whole way.
This is not naturally aspirated 22,000 rpm engines any more. There is not much of a difference on power between new and old engines. In naturally aspirated engines you can do much to make up for blow-by.. In turbo engine you can use just that little bit more of boost.

This is why the teams tell the driver what strat mode to use, and why the drivers ask for more power - they're saying "give me permission to run the engine at its maximum" because they know that the engines won't last for the requisite number of events if they just turn them up as and when they see fit.
This is what helped Redbull being more competitive in races this season as well. With multiple PUs planned they used more aggressive modes during the race.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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LM10 wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:26 pm
This is what helped Redbull being more competitive in races this season as well. With multiple PUs planned they used more aggressive modes during the race.
Exactly. In effect they have given themselves an engine performance improvement over their competitors by taking penalties at other events. They are mimicking the greater performance of the Mercedes from a few years ago by running a younger engine at high outputs than their competitors. Of course, Mercedes did it by having a better unit, but the Red Bull approach gives the same effect.

It would have been interesting to see whether Max's win would have been as easy if he was using a high-mileage, strat mode limited, PU.

Will Bottas use a fresh engine at the last race or reuse an old one? If he takes a brand new ICE and then thrashes it silly in the race, then he ought to be home and hosed on the top step.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:59 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:44 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:33 am

Lewis has used 3 engines for the season, Gasly has used 7. The unit in Gasly's car was fresher and he was using everything it had - he said in the cool down room that he was holding the overtake button the whole way.
This is not naturally aspirated 22,000 rpm engines any more. There is not much of a difference on power between new and old engines. In naturally aspirated engines you can do much to make up for blow-by.. In turbo engine you can use just that little bit more of boost.
The fresher engine can be more safely run in higher performance modes for longer than a rules-compliant engine that has already done most of its expected working life. All of the engines are run in a performance-limited mode for most of their lives with periods of high performance output rationed by the teams for reliability reasons.

This is why the teams tell the driver what strat mode to use, and why the drivers ask for more power - they're saying "give me permission to run the engine at its maximum" because they know that the engines won't last for the requisite number of events if they just turn them up as and when they see fit.

The engines have an allocation of high output that the teams can use. The engine can't be run flat out constantly or it will fail. It's possible that an engine near the end of its expected life can't be run in maximum mode at all - the team may have used up the allocation in earlier races in order to secure more points then. It's a trade off.

As an example, remember Brasil '17 when Hamilton started from the pit lane with a fresh engine and the team just said "go for it" and gave him all of the engine modes he wanted? That wouldn't have been possible with a 5- or 6-race old engine.
The power target is still the same for relevant modes. An engine to be used in its last race will have the same output target as that in its first race. This is why the teams manage the power modes to ensure that they have reliable output.

We do this in power geneation too (giant slow speed diesel run at near 100% load 24/7) We set the same power target for the engines whether at 1,000hrs or 16,000hours. Once there are no problems the rings and other parts would have worn etc but they still functionally seal and the lubrication is still good.
The problem comes when you have parts that are damaged and your lubrication deterioates. Then we take the engines down to overhaul the cylinders and other parts.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:04 pm
The power target is still the same for relevant modes. An engine to be used in its last race will have the same output target as that in its first race. This is why the teams manage the power modes to ensure that they have reliable output.
If the power is the same for all modes, why have the modes? Why does "party mode" give greater performance if the power is the same?

The reality is that the engines are run at a level that gives them reliability for the required number of races. If they could make the things do 7 races in "party mode" they surely would do so. They don't so they have to limit the performance used by the drivers.The available performance is determined broadly in the engine's design but is specific to each engine and its particular use history. That's why the drivers are limited to what modes they can use.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:50 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:04 pm
The power target is still the same for relevant modes. An engine to be used in its last race will have the same output target as that in its first race. This is why the teams manage the power modes to ensure that they have reliable output.
If the power is the same for all modes, why have the modes? Why does "party mode" give greater performance if the power is the same?

The reality is that the engines are run at a level that gives them reliability for the required number of races. If they could make the things do 7 races in "party mode" they surely would do so. They don't so they have to limit the performance used by the drivers.The available performance is determined broadly in the engine's design but is specific to each engine and its particular use history. That's why the drivers are limited to what modes they can use.
Respective modes obviously!
Said the powertargets dont drop with age of the engine.
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Kevinkirk
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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But if you don't need the PU to last as long wouldn't you increase your power targets

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godlameroso
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Kevinkirk wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:18 am
But if you don't need the PU to last as long wouldn't you increase your power targets
You are still limited because of fuel. Max power probably doesn't change much. What does is stamina.

Most engine manufacturers are probably within 2% of peak power, with sustainable power the gap is more varied.

Think of the 4 engines as runners. They're all pretty close over a 400m dash, but the gap over a 4000m race becomes apparent. One may be a better sprinter, one may have more stamina but less peak power. The runners can more or less finish with the same time but each has different pace during the race. Some are more adept at having a steady pace others can sprint from time to time because their steady pace is a bit slower.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:19 pm
Kevinkirk wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:18 am
But if you don't need the PU to last as long wouldn't you increase your power targets
You are still limited because of fuel. Max power probably doesn't change much. What does is stamina.
That's the point, isn't it? The ability to run the PU at maximum output for longer is going to give a real benefit in race pace. If your engine only has to do 1 or 2 races compared to one that has already done 6 races, you're at a distinct advantage of being able to run the PU harder than the other guy.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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godlameroso
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:43 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:19 pm
Kevinkirk wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:18 am
But if you don't need the PU to last as long wouldn't you increase your power targets
You are still limited because of fuel. Max power probably doesn't change much. What does is stamina.
That's the point, isn't it? The ability to run the PU at maximum output for longer is going to give a real benefit in race pace. If your engine only has to do 1 or 2 races compared to one that has already done 6 races, you're at a distinct advantage of being able to run the PU harder than the other guy.
That is true. Is there any word on Bottas needing a new ICE?

Yes you can run at more aggressive settings, however with mechanical failures the wear and tear doesn't always behave in predictable ways. Some times an engine will be more or less tolerant to knock. You live with that knock and design around it. However there are always unforeseen aspects you can't design for. Take ring wear and bore ovaling, some would say it would lead to drastically lower performance, but that isn't always the case. Or it might not be until it unexpectedly is. Ie that negative aspects of such wear are not seen right away.
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MtthsMlw
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:44 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:43 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:19 pm


You are still limited because of fuel. Max power probably doesn't change much. What does is stamina.
That's the point, isn't it? The ability to run the PU at maximum output for longer is going to give a real benefit in race pace. If your engine only has to do 1 or 2 races compared to one that has already done 6 races, you're at a distinct advantage of being able to run the PU harder than the other guy.
That is true. Is there any word on Bottas needing a new ICE?
No decision before next week. The engine burned or lost excessive amounts of oil and shut down precautionary as the tank was empty.
They could use an older one but that isn't preferred.

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Big Tea
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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MtthsMlw wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:05 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:44 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:43 pm

That's the point, isn't it? The ability to run the PU at maximum output for longer is going to give a real benefit in race pace. If your engine only has to do 1 or 2 races compared to one that has already done 6 races, you're at a distinct advantage of being able to run the PU harder than the other guy.
That is true. Is there any word on Bottas needing a new ICE?
No decision before next week. The engine burned or lost excessive amounts of oil and shut down precautionary as the tank was empty.
Well, as it was burning so much oil, it did not get the performance boost some claim Ferrari get from it :twisted:
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