Mercedes W11 Speculation Thread

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes W11 Speculation Thread

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Yes. Definitely the main crash structure sits lower than 2019.

The location is forward by about 30 millimetres.
The size of the space for the structure is also smaller - likely a smaller structure for aerodynamic reasons since it would be now sitting in the opening of the side pod. So I agree with those that this may turn out to be a a Ferrari style side pod as they call it.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes W11 Speculation Thread

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The Ferrari style side pods corroborate Bottas' comments that the top speed weakness of the W10 will be addressed.
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djones
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Re: Mercedes W11 Speculation Thread

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To be fair I think the top speed problem (which was just relative to Ferrari) will have been addressed for them by the new fuel sensor regulations!

That aside....

Are the Ferrari style side pods meant to give less drag or something?

If they have less drag, what is the downside to them?

zibby43
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Re: Mercedes W11 Speculation Thread

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djones wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 1:29 pm
Are the Ferrari style side pods meant to give less drag or something?

If they have less drag, what is the downside to them?
The high-top sidepods allow for a greater undercut. Air approaching this sidepod design is diverted downward around the sidepod and creates higher pressure over the floor at the rear of the car.

Essentially, the airflow is fed into the diffuser area, boosting the diffuser's performance. This is beneficial because the diffuser is a source for tremendous downforce and aerodynamic efficiency. In sum, adopting the high-top sidepods is a great way to generate some more downforce (via the floor and diffuser) without incurring a subsequent drag penalty.

Consequently, the rear wing AoA can be alleviated, creating even less drag (and facilitating greater top speed performance).

Scarbs has a great diagram illustrating the difference in undercut size:

Image

While the visual change will be fairly dramatic, it's more about marginal gains (better efficiency, less drag). The areas that are still most ripe for development after the recent regulation changes are the front wing and bargeboard sections.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes W11 Speculation Thread

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If more air is being flowed along the top of the rear floor and over the top of the diffuser, you'll get a lower pressure on top of the floor, not a higher one. Improving airflow over the top of the diffuser makes it more effective and so gives the improved downforce.

Assuming Mercedes are moving their sidepods "up", I'd expect a RedBull-style design rather than a Ferrari-style design.
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izzy
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Re: Mercedes W11 Speculation Thread

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zibby43 wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:58 am
The high-top sidepods allow for a greater undercut. Air approaching this sidepod design is diverted downward around the sidepod and creates higher pressure over the floor at the rear of the car.
Nice. It interacts with the front suspension as well, for how clean the airflow is into the inlets, and it must have outwash involved too I think: if they've already outwashed a lot of flow with the front wing, wheels and bargeboards, there can't be so much left for blowing over the diffuser. I think last year that was all a bit of an emergency operation after the tyre tests when they found out how much load the fronts needed.

Now they've had time to redo everything so afaics they've cut back on the outwash and are using the floor more and better, including these undercuts, and depending a bit less on the front wing which is draggy. I bet all 3 top teams end up pretty similar this year, copying each others' best bits and knowing the tyres

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Re: Mercedes W11 Speculation Thread

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:56 am
If more air is being flowed along the top of the rear floor and over the top of the diffuser, you'll get a lower pressure on top of the floor, not a higher one.
Correct because you end up in having the same or even more mass flow passing over the A-Surface structure with higher speed hence less pressure. If im not mistaken you get the benefit actually from the speed the air has as it drives the floor in the back.

However i also think that working the Air too hard in this area will have a negative effect on drag. Only speaking for the top side of the car not underneath it.

zibby43
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Re: Mercedes W11 Speculation Thread

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:56 am
If more air is being flowed along the top of the rear floor and over the top of the diffuser, you'll get a lower pressure on top of the floor, not a higher one. Improving airflow over the top of the diffuser makes it more effective and so gives the improved downforce.

Assuming Mercedes are moving their sidepods "up", I'd expect a RedBull-style design rather than a Ferrari-style design.
“Downwash is used to create higher pressure over the floor at the rear of the car. This improves the sealing between the tyre\diffuser and the diffuser performance itself, *both by having high pressure above it and also by driving low pressure aft of the trailing edge created by the flaps and vanes around the diffuser exit’s perimeter.*”

Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes W11 Speculation Thread

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zibby43 wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:49 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:56 am
If more air is being flowed along the top of the rear floor and over the top of the diffuser, you'll get a lower pressure on top of the floor, not a higher one. Improving airflow over the top of the diffuser makes it more effective and so gives the improved downforce.

Assuming Mercedes are moving their sidepods "up", I'd expect a RedBull-style design rather than a Ferrari-style design.
“Downwash is used to create higher pressure over the floor at the rear of the car. This improves the sealing between the tyre\diffuser and the diffuser performance itself, *both by having high pressure above it and also by driving low pressure aft of the trailing edge created by the flaps and vanes around the diffuser exit’s perimeter.*”
Where is that quote from?
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

zibby43
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Re: Mercedes W11 Speculation Thread

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:51 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:49 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:56 am
If more air is being flowed along the top of the rear floor and over the top of the diffuser, you'll get a lower pressure on top of the floor, not a higher one. Improving airflow over the top of the diffuser makes it more effective and so gives the improved downforce.

Assuming Mercedes are moving their sidepods "up", I'd expect a RedBull-style design rather than a Ferrari-style design.
“Downwash is used to create higher pressure over the floor at the rear of the car. This improves the sealing between the tyre\diffuser and the diffuser performance itself, *both by having high pressure above it and also by driving low pressure aft of the trailing edge created by the flaps and vanes around the diffuser exit’s perimeter.*”
Where is that quote from?
Here you go my friend:

https://drivetribe.com/p/f1-why-ferrari ... _fRH7x71gg

zibby43
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Re: Mercedes W11 Speculation Thread

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izzy wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:12 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:58 am
The high-top sidepods allow for a greater undercut. Air approaching this sidepod design is diverted downward around the sidepod and creates higher pressure over the floor at the rear of the car.
Nice. It interacts with the front suspension as well, for how clean the airflow is into the inlets, and it must have outwash involved too I think: if they've already outwashed a lot of flow with the front wing, wheels and bargeboards, there can't be so much left for blowing over the diffuser. I think last year that was all a bit of an emergency operation after the tyre tests when they found out how much load the fronts needed.

Now they've had time to redo everything so afaics they've cut back on the outwash and are using the floor more and better, including these undercuts, and depending a bit less on the front wing which is draggy. I bet all 3 top teams end up pretty similar this year, copying each others' best bits and knowing the tyres
I'm curious as to whether Mercedes will continue to utilize the Belleville washers in their front suspension design, in place of the formerly hydraulically-actuated element. It's funny because the rumors are that Ferrari are finally adopting an additional hydraulic element for their front suspension this year, at a time Mercedes (and Red Bull) have already moved on from it.

The Mercedes has always been very stiffly sprung, and I wonder if the move to the Belleville washer setup will prove to be a more dynamic and adaptable solution going forward, especially once they really dial it in.

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izzy
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Re: Mercedes W11 Speculation Thread

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zibby43 wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:35 pm
I'm curious as to whether Mercedes will continue to utilize the Belleville washers in their front suspension design, in place of the formerly hydraulically-actuated element. It's funny because the rumors are that Ferrari are finally adopting an additional hydraulic element for their front suspension this year, at a time Mercedes (and Red Bull) have already moved on from it.

The Mercedes has always been very stiffly sprung, and I wonder if the move to the Belleville washer setup will prove to be a more dynamic and adaptable solution going forward, especially once they really dial it in.
Belleville washers are really compact aren't they, and if they stack them they have friction which works as hysteresis. Also they seem easy to change and just incredibly simple. And with hydraulic being banned next year the experience will be useful, especially as they have to basically double the suspension travel then. Meanwhile i suspect Ferrari were already having setup problems at some races last year with their complicated hydraulic rear suspension, they went up and down quite a bit and it actually broke in Austin. So one way and another, i'm betting Belleville, especially with Aldo leaving and he was the FRICS/hydraulic person wasn't he?

Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes W11 Speculation Thread

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zibby43 wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:26 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:51 pm
zibby43 wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:49 pm


“Downwash is used to create higher pressure over the floor at the rear of the car. This improves the sealing between the tyre\diffuser and the diffuser performance itself, *both by having high pressure above it and also by driving low pressure aft of the trailing edge created by the flaps and vanes around the diffuser exit’s perimeter.*”
Where is that quote from?
Here you go my friend:

https://drivetribe.com/p/f1-why-ferrari ... _fRH7x71gg
Thanks. I'm not sure I agree with him. Even his own picture shows airflow around the undercut. Such flow isn't downwash as he earlier states. And if you flow the air faster over the rear floor then you will have lower pressure in that region, not higher. Odd.

Image

Indeed, with Mercedes's design one might expect more downwash as the air falls off the rear shoulder of the sidepod as it appears designed to encourage such a flow:

Image

Image
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

zibby43
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Re: Mercedes W11 Speculation Thread

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:03 am
zibby43 wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:26 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:51 pm

Where is that quote from?
Here you go my friend:

https://drivetribe.com/p/f1-why-ferrari ... _fRH7x71gg
Thanks. I'm not sure I agree with him. Even his own picture shows airflow around the undercut. Such flow isn't downwash as he earlier states. And if you flow the air faster over the rear floor then you will have lower pressure in that region, not higher. Odd.

https://drivetribe.imgix.net/IB_351wMQz ... crop=faces

Indeed, with Mercedes's design one might expect more downwash as the air falls off the rear shoulder of the sidepod as it appears designed to encourage such a flow:

https://drivetribe.imgix.net/Zzt6XfH6TK ... crop=faces

https://i.redd.it/xoih4o464uz21.jpg
I definitely see the logic and soundness in what you're describing. And I wasn't trying to contradict your response; I was just trying to supplement what I had shared initially when summarizing the main benefits of changing the side pod architecture and referencing the downwash/high pressure area on a section of the floor.

Question: Is there a zone or section of the floor in which you would want higher pressure airflow? And then a sort of migration to lower pressure area toward the rear and diffuser area?

Totally understand the goal of the diffuser is to accelerate air and generate a low pressure zone.

In recent years we've seen the slots at the edges of the floor (including toward the rear section near the rear tires), which increase the strength of the vortices in this area and help "seal" the gap between the floor and the track surface. This in turn prevents airflow from spilling out the sides and increases negative pressure on the floor.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes W11 Speculation Thread

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[quote=zibby43 post_id=880407 time=1578560317 user_id=37123]

The high-top sidepods allow for a greater undercut. Air approaching this sidepod design is diverted downward around the sidepod and creates higher pressure over the floor at the rear of the car.


Scarbs has a great diagram illustrating the difference in undercut size:

While the visual change will be fairly dramatic, it's more about marginal gains (better efficiency, less drag). The areas that are still most ripe for development after the recent regulation changes are the front wing and bargeboard sections.
[/quote]

I dont necessarily agree with that diagram nor the theory put forward. It does not show the radiator outline which would the be same, for both types whether high top or not. Air also can be fed to the coke bottle area from the side pod not just the undercut. All Recent RedBull Cars have little or no undercut and did still pose some the best ground effects amon their contemporaries. So I disagree with Scarbs here.

The main is reason is reducing side pod lift. There is a low pressure pocket above conventional sidepods, which is greatlty reduced by the Ferrari side pods along with use of the side pod wing.. The other reason is you get a lot of space to put the sidepod wing. We see teams not using two openings like what Ferrari has but still adopting the side pod wing (McLaren, RedBull, Renault etc).