Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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Jambier
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Bill wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:41 pm
https://abload.de/img/007_o5pk01.jpg

Renault are lying they don't have a powerunit that is better than Honda they are dead last they don't even have the budget to match the top three.
This is a picture from 2017....
And Taffin is a very reliable guy, you can't compare him with Abiteboul be serious...

We still talk about engine because we were traumatized in 2014, but the truth is that engines are all quite close, chassis is now again making WDC winner, not engine.

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djos
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Bill wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:24 am
These is the usual chest pumping from Renault if their engine was so fantastic why was torro rosso nipping at their heals they should have put a distance between them, they got Riccardo and Hulk good drivers.
Did you not watch the Monza race? The Renault PU was very impressive and really showed massive gains compared to the previous year.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Bill
Bill
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Did you watch the Brazilian race the Honda power unit showed massive gains compared to previous years . These will not get us anywhere let's called it a day, 2020 is here and that's all that matters I expect championship fight for Honda I can't say the same for the other pu manufacturer.

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Wouter
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Jambier wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 4:51 pm
Bill wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:41 pm
https://abload.de/img/007_o5pk01.jpg

Renault are lying they don't have a powerunit that is better than Honda they are dead last they don't even have the budget to match the top three.
.
This is a picture from 2017....

We still talk about engine because we were traumatized in 2014, but the truth is that engines are all quite close,
chassis is now again making WDC winner, not engine.
I also think that the engines are all quite close, but what you say about the picture .....
It is not from 2017, it is from 27-09-2019. @Snorked posted it here. It is from a PU briefing held by Asaki.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18874&p=869095#p869095

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djos
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Bill wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:26 pm
Did you watch the Brazilian race the Honda power unit showed massive gains compared to previous years . These will not get us anywhere let's called it a day, 2020 is here and that's all that matters I expect championship fight for Honda I can't say the same for the other pu manufacturer.
A big part of that was the crap Renault chassis and sub-par aero - Brazil is very different to Monza, it requires more than just raw power.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Alexf1
Alexf1
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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djos wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 8:07 pm
Bill wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:26 pm
Did you watch the Brazilian race the Honda power unit showed massive gains compared to previous years . These will not get us anywhere let's called it a day, 2020 is here and that's all that matters I expect championship fight for Honda I can't say the same for the other pu manufacturer.
A big part of that was the crap Renault chassis and sub-par aero - Brazil is very different to Monza, it requires more than just raw power.
Any 2019 GPS data available somewhere? If 2019 Renault engine is that good then Renault raced a 2018 chassis in 2019 and McLaren 2019 chassis is underwhelming

GhostF1
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Abiteboul and Taffin cop heat because they over promise and slander their opposition. No other manufacturer/team makes negative remarks about their competitors and their performance, Renault does.

And I'm sorry "we have the most powerful race engine" ... really? Do we not find it interesting that apart from only Renault believing this random pecking order they've produced (where the other 3 agree on a different order), They've gone from "we have the most powerful engine on the grid" to "we are equal with Ferrari" to "we are equal to Ferrari in race" to "we are close to Ferrari then Honda then Mercedes" to "we are behind Ferrari but ahead of Mercedes and Honda are lagging behind".

Actually comical awaiting their statements. They are the only ones to publicly make these claims while simultaneously degrade rivals reputations, everyone else only speaks when directly asked a question of that nature. Eg. Tanabe-san and Andy Cowell only commenting on "theorised pecking order" when asked. At this point these claims feel like an attempt to stay relevant and spoken about. I just dislike the unsportsmanlike behaviour they exude.

toraabe
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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One thing is power. Another the integration, center of gravity, etc. Mercedes and Honda are in that perspective superior.

PhillipM
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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How to tell when you should disregard someones opinion disguised as fact - when they claim the Merc or Honda have better CoG than the other engines.

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aleks_ader
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Plus in rules there is prescribed minimum CofG number from reference plane.

Code: Select all

5.4.2 The centre of gravity of the power unit may not lie less than 200mm above the reference
plane.
"And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you're no longer a racing driver..." Ayrton Senna

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Mudflap
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Teams can bolt tungsten plates to the engine sump to tweak the CG and bring the engine mass above the minimum limit if required. Agricultural but effective.

Anyway, unless Renault somehow run an inverted V16 for an engine, the performance deficit of a slightly misplaced engine CG is negligible.
How much TQ does it make though?

zoroastar
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Bill wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 5:26 pm
Did you watch the Brazilian race the Honda power unit showed massive gains compared to previous years . These will not get us anywhere let's called it a day, 2020 is here and that's all that matters I expect championship fight for Honda I can't say the same for the other pu manufacturer.
but what does your obvious obsession with honda have to do with this renault power unit forum? you speak as if you think that the main difference in teams pace is which power unit they use. its quite the contrary, and anyone that thinks they can tell which PU is better, when they are all so even is usually living in honda fanboy dreamworld.

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godlameroso
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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aleks_ader wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:14 pm
Plus in rules there is prescribed minimum CofG number from reference plane.

Code: Select all

5.4.2 The centre of gravity of the power unit may not lie less than 200mm above the reference
plane.
What about the transmission, how does the layout affect the transmission in regards to COG? You have to cool the transmission and pump oil through the gears, all of that takes up space, how does that affect COG with the Renault layout vs the split turbo layout?

The COG of the car isn't determined entirely by the ICE, the transmission is the second heaviest part of the car.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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godlameroso wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 3:06 am
aleks_ader wrote:
Sat Jan 25, 2020 11:14 pm
Plus in rules there is prescribed minimum CofG number from reference plane.

Code: Select all

5.4.2 The centre of gravity of the power unit may not lie less than 200mm above the reference
plane.
What about the transmission, how does the layout affect the transmission in regards to COG? You have to cool the transmission and pump oil through the gears, all of that takes up space, how does that affect COG with the Renault layout vs the split turbo layout?

The COG of the car isn't determined entirely by the ICE, the transmission is the second heaviest part of the car.
Transmission is all about aerodynamics!

Don't you remember the 2013 "Z" arm williams transmission! That thing that looked like a wasps thorax... Yeah.. They laid the gear casing flat on its side to acheive the low profile and win all in low CoG and what they thought was good aero by overly focusing on the beam wing above the coke bottle area. Yet after all the effort, the low gearbox design was acutally starving the flow on the floor of the car and encroaching on the the diffuser throat and causing disastrous wear of the CV joints. They aptly learned after this of course and went back to the slim high gearbox design.

Image

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godlameroso
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Re: Renault Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Yes the transmission is all about aerodynamics, and it's also the second heaviest mechanical part of the car, so also influences COG. That's why the transmission is such an important part of the car. Like you said, it opens up room in the diffuser, and since it's bolted to the engine, and the engine is bolted to the chassis, the 3 form one stressed member, and all 3 are responsible for COG.

So transmission and power unit layout both are integral to aero not just because of the heavy lumps, but because of the all the ancillaries, all the heat exchangers, the fuel tank itself can weigh as much as 130kg filled to the brim and affects the balance of the car as well. All of these pieces are in front of the most critical aero real estate. Which is why aero is more than just the stuff you see on the surface of the car, but trimming the fat from the stuff under hood is also aero improvements.

Something as innocuous as redesigning the wiring loom can shrink wrap the chassis 4.2mm in an area near the side pod, which lets you put in a duct that lets you feed a radiator more efficiently, which lets you reduce the size of the side pod opening to cool this radiator, which gives you a 2 cm tighter engine cover. Which then diverts a little more airflow to the rear wing retraction, which improves the performance of the rear brake winglets.

The slow road of R&D is slow because there are so many knock on effects which are dependent on the chassis itself. You can have very good aero pieces, but if the stuff under the skin is too big, too heavy, occupies too much space, then it will never work as other designs.

Maybe the big spending in 2020 for 2021 comes from going as extreme as possible with the transmission as allowed. 2021 will see transmissions homologated for 3 years, with only modifications allowed to "reduce costs" every other year. Knowing this, how will the Renault power unit layout help or hinder their transmission design?

Ferrari is rumored to be making big architecture changes revolving around shortening the transmission, what are the odds the big change is a split turbo setup? How would Renault make the transition, especially if the split turbo is the layout that gives you the best transmission design? Surely it would be important for 2021 regulations that have very prescriptive body work rules.

Increasing aero real estate by having a better transmission seems the only way to get a big advantage.

The test benches are very important because they let you keep developing the transmission, you can stress test them until they fail, see what works, where you can go more extreme.

Renault, McLaren, Mercedes, Ferrari, Red Bull and Williams are the only teams that make their own transmissions.

Alfa, Racing Point, AT, Haas have to rely on their suppliers, Williams may go down this route. Clearly the well funded teams can make a better chassis, and a better transmission to go with it.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee