A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
godlameroso
514
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Emag wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:08 pm
If you base the downforce equation to the drag equation, then the amount of force coming from the air would be proportional with half of the velocity squared. So, there should be very little force on low speeds, and very high on high speeds. I can't really find an equation to calculate downforce, because it is a very complex thing that depends on too many variables, however it shouldn't be too different to the drag equation as they are principally the same thing (the amount of force the air exerts on an object). That's why I said that at low speed corners, more specifically hairpins, there isn't that much downforce being generated to help with the turn-in. Therefore mechanical grip (tires + suspension) take over to try and make the car turn as much as possible without dropping the speed. Obviously tires are the same for everyone, however the way the car handles the tire is not. Because that is controlled by the suspension. Hence coming to my point. In order to fix their low-speed deficiencies they would have to make some sort of adjustment to their front-suspension design (the rear helps too, however I am assuming they have found a good compromise there considering they carried over the design from 2018).

An example on how the front suspension might help on low-speed corners is by "pushing" down the tire on which most of the load is focused and releasing the other one. In a left hairpin, you might want to push down on the front-left tire and release the front right a bit, since most of the load will be transfered to the left, and that's the side that needs more grip.
This happens in 7 corners in the entire year, every corner besides those hairpins needs downforce.
Saishū kōnā

Emag
Emag
95
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:56 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:24 pm
This happens in 7 corners in the entire year, every corner besides those hairpins needs downforce.
1) Australia -> Penultimate Corner
2) Bahrain -> First Corner
3) China -> Penultimate Corner (the hairpin)
4) Azerbaijan ->No cutout low-speed corner but there are several medium speed corners
5) Spain -> The hairpin at the end of sector 2 + the chicane at the end of sector 3.
6) Monaco -> The hairpin at sector 1, the corner leading up to the tunnel, the chicane after the tunnel, and rascass in the end.
7) Canda -> The hairpin leading up to the back straight.
8- France -> The chicane after the main straight, the last corner to some degree.
9) Austria -> Most Corners are 90 degree corners, medium to fast mostly (wonder why McLaren were so good there...)
10) Great Britain -> "The loop" corner before the wellington straight and the chicane at the end.
11) Germany -> The hairpin after the main straight, and sector 3 is somewhat slow-medium.
12) Hungary -> Apart from turn 1, most of the corners that were slow before have turned into medium-speed corners because of the bigger downforce cars have now.
14) Belgium -> Bust Stop Chicane (and some long corners which require strong front-end in general)
15) Italy -> The two consecutive chicanes in sector 1. Also not much downforce is put on the cars here, so mechanical grip is very important.
16) Singapore -> Apart from the corner which leads up to the back straight, similarly to Hungary, most of the corners have turned into medium-speed corners.
17) Russia -> Mostly 90 degree corners, no real "slow" corner here.
18) Japan -> Apart from the chicane at the end of the lap and the hairpin at end of sector 1, most corners here are fast (not medium), also a track where McLaren did very good last year.
19) Mexico -> Although most corners here are 90-degrees (there are some slow corners), the air is very thin, so good mechanical grip is crucial.
20) USA -> Hairpin turn 1, Hairpin turn 11, and the initial part of Sector 3 all are slow / medium speed corners. McLaren made up so much time in the fast sections in this track compared to Renault, only to lose most of that advantage in those corners.
21) Brazil -> Sector 2 has some particularly nasty slow corners, but Brazil also has long corners which require a very strong front-end in general. (McLaren here was mehish in my opinion, but they had the perfect strategy in the race to take advantage of the mayhem going on at the front to get the podium)
22) Abu Dhabi -> Beginning of sector 2 and 3 both have chicanes / slow corners.

I guess it's not 7 corners in total after all. Also, I did not say that they should sacrifice downforce for mechanical grip. I am simply saying that in order to fix their low-speed weaknesses they would have to do something about front suspension geometry (Or the whole front-end in general). Low-speed corners is where they lost most time compared to top teams but even the midfield in some cases. In high-speed corners they were great (almost on par with the top 3, but not really in the same level). If they fix up the low-speed weaknesses and maintain the same level of stability on high speed corners this season, they should be really competitive.

PhillipM
PhillipM
424
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 2:18 pm
Location: Over the road from Boothy...

You're really also the wrong way around, if you push down on the loaded tyre more you'll lose grip, not gain it.

But that aside even low speed performance at the moment is more about managing surface temperatures than the actual mechanics, and decoupling the single wheel movements from the rest so that you can take more kerb.
Last edited by PhillipM on Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ground Effect
Ground Effect
159
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:39 am

So, I just needed a bit of clarification. Zak has said that, obviously McLaren can’t make or expect same kind of gains in 2020 as they did last year. So 0.5secs improvement being rumoured, are the reports suggesting net gains on the top teams or 0.5secs improvement between the 34 and the 35?
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously.
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

_cerber1
232
Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:50 pm
Location: From Russia with love

Ground Effect wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:01 am
So, I just needed a bit of clarification. Zak has said that, obviously McLaren can’t make or expect same kind of gains in 2020 as they did last year. So 0.5secs improvement being rumoured, are the reports suggesting net gains on the top teams or 0.5secs improvement between the 34 and the 35?
I think this is about the chassis. Conditionally, they took the results of Abu Dhabi and performed a modulation for MCL 35, and got 0.5 sec of advantage.

M840TR
M840TR
390
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:04 pm

Ground Effect wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:01 am
So, I just needed a bit of clarification. Zak has said that, obviously McLaren can’t make or expect same kind of gains in 2020 as they did last year. So 0.5secs improvement being rumoured, are the reports suggesting net gains on the top teams or 0.5secs improvement between the 34 and the 35?
It’s about the gap to the top teams. They were ~1.5 sec off pole in 2019, so they want to defend 4th by narrowing this gap by a further 0.5 sec. Half a second gain year-on-year would leave them among the backmarkers as others’ relative gains would be more significant.

Marble
Marble
23
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:30 pm

Found this. Seemed they had good efficiency and tried to add some DF during the season:

PowerandtheGlory
PowerandtheGlory
24
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:52 am

Marble wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:12 pm
Found this. Seemed they had good efficiency and tried to add some DF during the season:

Its an interesting post - 'Merci F1Whisperer'

Very clear how Ferrari added speed during the second half (through whatever means they had) and Merc slowly got slower. Interesting how Ferrari and Alfa were joint speed in Germany (maybe due to the weather) before Ferrari pulls clear again at the top.. MClaren being Renault powered finished 5th and Renault themselves 4th fastest.. Toro rosso started the year 1st in the traps and then slowly got slower (maybe as they kept adding D) where as RB did the opposite, started Slower and added Speed (probably as Honda allowed them to open up the engine a bit more)
“I don't believe in luck, luck is preparation and taking your opportunity” Ross Brawn

Marble
Marble
23
Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:30 pm

PowerandtheGlory wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:07 pm
Marble wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:12 pm
Found this. Seemed they had good efficiency and tried to add some DF during the season:

Its an interesting post - 'Merci F1Whisperer'

Very clear how Ferrari added speed during the second half (through whatever means they had) and Merc slowly got slower. Interesting how Ferrari and Alfa were joint speed in Germany (maybe due to the weather) before Ferrari pulls clear again at the top.. MClaren being Renault powered finished 5th and Renault themselves 4th fastest.. Toro rosso started the year 1st in the traps and then slowly got slower (maybe as they kept adding D) where as RB did the opposite, started Slower and added Speed (probably as Honda allowed them to open up the engine a bit more)
Yep.
The post says Ferrari was off in Australia due to cooling problems.
Only thing : it seems those are moving averages, which explains why the graphs are smooth. So in Germany the average advantage of Ferrari since the beginning of the season (and not during the German GP) is at the same level of Alfa's.

godlameroso
514
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Emag wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:19 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:24 pm
This happens in 7 corners in the entire year, every corner besides those hairpins needs downforce.
1) Australia -> Penultimate Corner
Needs downforce, it's over 70kph.

2) Bahrain -> First Corner
3) China -> Penultimate Corner (the hairpin)
4) Azerbaijan ->No cutout low-speed corner but there are several medium speed corners

You need downforce for those.

5) Spain -> The hairpin at the end of sector 2 + the chicane at the end of sector 3.

You need downforce for turn 10.

6) Monaco -> The hairpin at sector 1, the corner leading up to the tunnel, the chicane after the tunnel, and rascass in the end.

Only the hairpin at the top of the hill doesn't require downforce.

7) Canda -> The hairpin leading up to the back straight.
8- France -> The chicane after the main straight, the last corner to some degree.

You need downforce for everything but the final corner, and for the penultimate one you do which sets you up for the final corner.

9) Austria -> Most Corners are 90 degree corners, medium to fast mostly (wonder why McLaren were so good there...)

You need good downforce everywhere in Austria. The downforce helps under braking.

10) Great Britain -> "The loop" corner before the wellington straight and the chicane at the end.

Every corner in Silverstone needs downforce period.

11) Germany -> The hairpin after the main straight, and sector 3 is somewhat slow-medium.

You definitely need downforce for everything except the hairpin in Hockenheim. Even more so for Nurburgring.

12) Hungary -> Apart from turn 1, most of the corners that were slow before have turned into medium-speed corners because of the bigger downforce cars have now.

Hungary is full downforce and always has been.

14) Belgium -> Bust Stop Chicane (and some long corners which require strong front-end in general)

Spa only has the bus stop, turn 1 needs downforce.

15) Italy -> The two consecutive chicanes in sector 1. Also not much downforce is put on the cars here, so mechanical grip is very important.

I'll give you this one.

16) Singapore -> Apart from the corner which leads up to the back straight, similarly to Hungary, most of the corners have turned into medium-speed corners.

Don't need max downforce here although it helps, more than anything you need good suspension, traction and braking stability. You can get away with a weak front end.

17) Russia -> Mostly 90 degree corners, no real "slow" corner here.
18) Japan -> Apart from the chicane at the end of the lap and the hairpin at end of sector 1, most corners here are fast (not medium), also a track where McLaren did very good last year.
19) Mexico -> Although most corners here are 90-degrees (there are some slow corners), the air is very thin, so good mechanical grip is crucial.
20) USA -> Hairpin turn 1, Hairpin turn 11, and the initial part of Sector 3 all are slow / medium speed corners. McLaren made up so much time in the fast sections in this track compared to Renault, only to lose most of that advantage in those corners.
21) Brazil -> Sector 2 has some particularly nasty slow corners, but Brazil also has long corners which require a very strong front-end in general. (McLaren here was mehish in my opinion, but they had the perfect strategy in the race to take advantage of the mayhem going on at the front to get the podium)
22) Abu Dhabi -> Beginning of sector 2 and 3 both have chicanes / slow corners.

I guess it's not 7 corners in total after all. Also, I did not say that they should sacrifice downforce for mechanical grip. I am simply saying that in order to fix their low-speed weaknesses they would have to do something about front suspension geometry (Or the whole front-end in general). Low-speed corners is where they lost most time compared to top teams but even the midfield in some cases. In high-speed corners they were great (almost on par with the top 3, but not really in the same level). If they fix up the low-speed weaknesses and maintain the same level of stability on high speed corners this season, they should be really competitive.
It's roughly 7 corners where downforce doesn't really matter.
Saishū kōnā

Jackles-UK
41
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:02 am

There are zero corners where downforce makes absolutely no difference. I think even Lowes in Monaco (the slowest corner of the year) is taken at about 40mph in modern F1 cars and if you put your hand out of the the window of your road car at that speed you can still feel the force it generates.

I think the point being made is that there are many corners/sectors on the calendar in which mechanical grip becomes more critical than high-speed aero grip and these were a frequent Achilles heel of the 2019 car. Carlos basically admitted this towards the end of last season (in Mexico, I think?) and that improving this would be a focus for next year.

Ground Effect
Ground Effect
159
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:39 am

M840TR wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:42 am
Ground Effect wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:01 am
So, I just needed a bit of clarification. Zak has said that, obviously McLaren can’t make or expect same kind of gains in 2020 as they did last year. So 0.5secs improvement being rumoured, are the reports suggesting net gains on the top teams or 0.5secs improvement between the 34 and the 35?
It’s about the gap to the top teams. They were ~1.5 sec off pole in 2019, so they want to defend 4th by narrowing this gap by a further 0.5 sec. Half a second gain year-on-year would leave them among the backmarkers as others’ relative gains would be more significant.
OK, but I have to say, my bigger worry is the race pace, It was considerably higher than the gap in qualifying. 0.5secs gain there won’t stop them from being lapped.
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously.
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

NathanOlder
164
Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:05 am
Location: Kent

Jackles-UK wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:35 am
There are zero corners where downforce makes absolutely no difference. I think even Lowes in Monaco (the slowest corner of the year) is taken at about 40mph in modern F1 cars and if you put your hand out of the the window of your road car at that speed you can still feel the force it generates.

I think the point being made is that there are many corners/sectors on the calendar in which mechanical grip becomes more critical than high-speed aero grip and these were a frequent Achilles heel of the 2019 car. Carlos basically admitted this towards the end of last season (in Mexico, I think?) and that improving this would be a focus for next year.
Yeah I agree,although theres no way they do 40mph around Lowes, maybe 40kph
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the EDGE
the EDGE
136
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:31 pm
Location: Bedfordshire ENGLAND

Ground Effect wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:09 am
M840TR wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:42 am
Ground Effect wrote:
Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:01 am
So, I just needed a bit of clarification. Zak has said that, obviously McLaren can’t make or expect same kind of gains in 2020 as they did last year. So 0.5secs improvement being rumoured, are the reports suggesting net gains on the top teams or 0.5secs improvement between the 34 and the 35?
It’s about the gap to the top teams. They were ~1.5 sec off pole in 2019, so they want to defend 4th by narrowing this gap by a further 0.5 sec. Half a second gain year-on-year would leave them among the backmarkers as others’ relative gains would be more significant.
OK, but I have to say, my bigger worry is the race pace, It was considerably higher than the gap in qualifying. 0.5secs gain there won’t stop them from being lapped.
I think 2 big factors come in to play during the race that aren’t so noticeable in quali, Namely tyre wear and fuel saving, and both of these are emphasised if you are stuck in midfield battles

We see how if a car can get clear at the front, they reap a big advantage even over their team mate, and often forget that huge gains can still be made by reducing tyre wear

Closing gap to the front by 0.5 in quali could translate to a much better race pace if it allows them to pull away from the midfield back

M840TR
M840TR
390
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:04 pm