2021 Engine thread

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
mzso
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Holm86 wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:55 pm
And a higher percentage of biofuel, which will mean less power
I fail to see how that's true.

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Holm86
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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mzso wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:16 pm
Holm86 wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:55 pm
And a higher percentage of biofuel, which will mean less power
I fail to see how that's true.
Because ethanol has much less energy density compared to the normal race fuel

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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and more to the point butanol has 34.4 MJ/kg
less than 80% of gasoline's

mzso
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Holm86 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:37 pm
mzso wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:16 pm
Holm86 wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 12:55 pm
And a higher percentage of biofuel, which will mean less power
I fail to see how that's true.
Because ethanol has much less energy density compared to the normal race fuel
Ethanol is not "the biofuel". Only one kind. I don't remember any particular restrictions on biofuel, from when I looked at it. Is there any?

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Holm86
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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mzso wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:17 pm
Holm86 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:37 pm
mzso wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:16 pm


I fail to see how that's true.
Because ethanol has much less energy density compared to the normal race fuel
Ethanol is not "the biofuel". Only one kind. I don't remember any particular restrictions on biofuel, from when I looked at it. Is there any?
Not the only one no, but I don't know any biofuels that as high energy content as regular gasoline

Dr. Acula
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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mzso wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:17 pm
Holm86 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:37 pm
mzso wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 5:16 pm


I fail to see how that's true.
Because ethanol has much less energy density compared to the normal race fuel
Ethanol is not "the biofuel". Only one kind. I don't remember any particular restrictions on biofuel, from when I looked at it. Is there any?
In the F1 rules? Nope. So far the FIA didn't define what exactly they mean with "Biofuel".
Propably they go for BtL (Biomass to Liquid) which basically allows you to produce any kind of liquid fuel you want, even petrol.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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commercial intent is (or was) the restriction

this requirement seemed to permit bio-butanol (as we have been shown with Honda)
but not yet anything made from it ???

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Holm86
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:55 pm
commercial intent is (or was) the restriction

this requirement seemed to permit bio-butanol (as we have been shown with Honda)
but not yet anything made from it ???
Butanol is only slightly less energy dense than gasoline, but definitely much more dense that ethanol

But isn't it expensive and difficult to produce?

mzso
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Holm86 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:12 pm
But isn't it expensive and difficult to produce?
That never mattered to F1.

mzso
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Re: 2021 Engine thread

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:55 pm
commercial intent is (or was) the restriction

this requirement seemed to permit bio-butanol (as we have been shown with Honda)
but not yet anything made from it ???
Oh yeah...
They might as well go for propane or butane. They are both widely used commercially.

Tommy Cookers
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propane/butane etc content is strongly limited by restriction on fuel composition by carbon atom count and vapour pressure
ok within those limits using bio propane/butane could make sense - minimising loss from biofuel overall

and isobutanol ie bioisobutanol matches gasoline in mass-specific energy

btw butanol could have been useful in 'old' F1
having much higher heat per mass of air than gasoline or the lower alcohols eg ethanol or methanol

ncx
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In the 2021 fuel regulations, they go to some extent in describing "Advanced Sustainable component" and "Second generation biocomponents" in the Fuel definitions section, but then in the Composition of the fuel section the only mention of biofuel is this:

16.4.4 A minimum of 10% (m/m) of the fuel must comprise advanced sustainable Ethanol.

It seems the details are still work in progress, which would also explain the absence of the race fuel max allowance, while the max fuel flow rate is kept at 100kg/h.