Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
User avatar
Mudflap
317
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:36 pm

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

LM10 wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:56 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:34 pm
Today Brixworth have held a company wide meeting to present the new power unit.

Rumours are 20 hp up from last season and over 3 tenths quicker from just the engine (of which almost 1 tenth from the cooling inovations that allow the car to run more closed).

All their prove out engines have failed before achieving the target mileage and they are now counting on the engines returning from Barcelona at the end of the test to be used for prove out.
20 hp is the biggest gain since 2014? Seems like one of the rumors must be false.
I agree, sound more like what you'd expect for an in-season update. In terms of lap time it sounds impressive to me though.
nah pop no style

User avatar
izzy
69
Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Mudflap wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:28 pm
I agree, sound more like what you'd expect for an in-season update. In terms of lap time it sounds impressive to me though.
they've redone their electromotors as well haven't they, learning from FE. But the failures are bit weird don't you think? They ran 2020 parts in Abu Dhabi, i'd have expected them to have sorted it by now. And to get it to last they just have to turn it down a bit and run it a bit less hot? I mean if they're failing consistently that fits in with the aluminium material degrading through heat as Andy Cowell was saying

User avatar
Mudflap
317
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:36 pm

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

izzy wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:34 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:28 pm
I agree, sound more like what you'd expect for an in-season update. In terms of lap time it sounds impressive to me though.
they've redone their electromotors as well haven't they, learning from FE. But the failures are bit weird don't you think? They ran 2020 parts in Abu Dhabi, i'd have expected them to have sorted it by now. And to get it to last they just have to turn it down a bit and run it a bit less hot? I mean if they're failing consistently that fits in with the aluminium material degrading through heat as Andy Cowell was saying
All I remember was that VB got a hybrid 2020 spec which didn't get to race due to a pneumatic failure in practice I think.

This time last year they were in a much tougher spot and didn't actually manage to bring any performance over the winter.
nah pop no style

User avatar
izzy
69
Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Mudflap wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:39 pm
All I remember was that VB got a hybrid 2020 spec which didn't get to race due to a pneumatic failure in practice I think.

This time last year they were in a much tougher spot and didn't actually manage to bring any performance over the winter.
yes it was a pneumatic leak straight away, so yes good point probably something completely different. It's just that it sounds like now everything depends on everything: they have new coatings to run hotter, they've said the aluminium is degrading with it, the radiators and aero package seem to depend on hotter coolant with flowing less air, and it's failing consistently apparently. So if they have to run cooler after all, they might have to turn it down quite a lot

So let's hope they just go round and round on Wednesday! i'll be watching :pray:
Last edited by izzy on Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

b2bL44
b2bL44
4
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 1:46 am

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Mudflap wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:34 pm
Today Brixworth have held a company wide meeting to present the new power unit.

Rumours are 20 hp up from last season and over 3 tenths quicker from just the engine (of which almost 1 tenth from the cooling inovations that allow the car to run more closed).

All their prove out engines have failed before achieving the target mileage and they are now counting on the engines returning from Barcelona at the end of the test to be used for prove out.
So is an early Spec 2 introduction still on the cards?

Malaysia 2016 still haunts me..... :wtf:

zibby43
zibby43
440
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2017 11:16 am

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Mudflap wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:28 pm
LM10 wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:56 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:34 pm
Today Brixworth have held a company wide meeting to present the new power unit.

Rumours are 20 hp up from last season and over 3 tenths quicker from just the engine (of which almost 1 tenth from the cooling inovations that allow the car to run more closed).

All their prove out engines have failed before achieving the target mileage and they are now counting on the engines returning from Barcelona at the end of the test to be used for prove out.
20 hp is the biggest gain since 2014? Seems like one of the rumors must be false.
I agree, sound more like what you'd expect for an in-season update. In terms of lap time it sounds impressive to me though.
The lap time gain is very impressive indeed. Over 3 tenths just from the PU side for the first spec of the 2020 PU is about what I expected when I heard that Brixworth had a much better winter.

Now that they have the performance, they've got some time to continue to work on the reliability before Melbourne.

Thanks for the outstanding info.

User avatar
godlameroso
432
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Good news for Honda if 20hp is all they found at the expense of reliability and a small weight penalty from heavier radiators.

It brings up an interesting question? Is it better to have a slightly heavier engine with smaller lighter radiators, or a smaller lighter engine with slightly heavier radiators?(which one would be more reliable and aerodynamically beneficial as a package) I'm guessing the weight penalty comes from increased wall thickness since the system pressure is likely higher if fluids are running hotter.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Bill
Bill
8
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:28 am

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Lap times would give you the answer

User avatar
dren
288
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:14 pm

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

Mudflap wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:28 pm
LM10 wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:56 pm
Mudflap wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:34 pm
Today Brixworth have held a company wide meeting to present the new power unit.

Rumours are 20 hp up from last season and over 3 tenths quicker from just the engine (of which almost 1 tenth from the cooling inovations that allow the car to run more closed).

All their prove out engines have failed before achieving the target mileage and they are now counting on the engines returning from Barcelona at the end of the test to be used for prove out.
20 hp is the biggest gain since 2014? Seems like one of the rumors must be false.
I agree, sound more like what you'd expect for an in-season update. In terms of lap time it sounds impressive to me though.
Impressive indeed. I read that as the power gains are responsible for 2 tenths and the cooling improvements which allow for smaller cooling inlets are responsible for the other tenth. Correct?
Honda!

User avatar
izzy
69
Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:32 pm
Good news for Honda if 20hp is all they found at the expense of reliability and a small weight penalty from heavier radiators.

It brings up an interesting question? Is it better to have a slightly heavier engine with smaller lighter radiators, or a smaller lighter engine with slightly heavier radiators?(which one would be more reliable and aerodynamically beneficial as a package) I'm guessing the weight penalty comes from increased wall thickness since the system pressure is likely higher if fluids are running hotter.
why is it a choice between which is heavier?

The system pressure is limited by the regs, to 3.x bar, i think the weight is bigger radiators (face area as they said). And so it must be some fancypants coolant to be running hotter, with nanoparticles or something

But yes if this is true it's good news for the others. It doesn't 100% all add up for me tho, could be some ace sandbagging :o

User avatar
godlameroso
432
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

izzy wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:14 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 12:32 pm
Good news for Honda if 20hp is all they found at the expense of reliability and a small weight penalty from heavier radiators.

It brings up an interesting question? Is it better to have a slightly heavier engine with smaller lighter radiators, or a smaller lighter engine with slightly heavier radiators?(which one would be more reliable and aerodynamically beneficial as a package) I'm guessing the weight penalty comes from increased wall thickness since the system pressure is likely higher if fluids are running hotter.
why is it a choice between which is heavier?

The system pressure is limited by the regs, to 3.x bar, i think the weight is bigger radiators (face area as they said). And so it must be some fancypants coolant to be running hotter, with nanoparticles or something

But yes if this is true it's good news for the others. It doesn't 100% all add up for me tho, could be some ace sandbagging :o
That means if they were using water they'd be limited to running at 130c. The delta between the coolant temperature and the ambient temperature is the total system heat rejection, so perhaps since whatever fluid they're using has a lower thermal conductivity than water, it's compensated for by using a greater coolant to ambient delta? At 150c you already start affecting the structural integrity of aluminum, so they're probably straddling that edge, perhaps 140c coolant temps? I know oil will easily run at that temperature. Hah, wouldn't it be something if they consolidated both engine and oil cooling because they were using only oil to both lubricate and cool the engine?

IIRC the viscosity of the oil they use is already practically water.

With good enough oil that has good heat transfer properties, you could use it in place of coolant. IF you could do that then you'd eliminate the water pump in the block, the scavenge and oil pumps would be your water pump. The architecture of the block would have to completely change.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

User avatar
izzy
69
Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 1:48 pm
That means if they were using water they'd be limited to running at 130c. The delta between the coolant temperature and the ambient temperature is the total system heat rejection, so perhaps since whatever fluid they're using has a lower thermal conductivity than water, it's compensated for by using a greater coolant to ambient delta? At 150c you already start affecting the structural integrity of aluminum, so they're probably straddling that edge, perhaps 140c coolant temps? I know oil will easily run at that temperature. Hah, wouldn't it be something if they consolidated both engine and oil cooling because they were using only oil to both lubricate and cool the engine?

IIRC the viscosity of the oil they use is already practically water.

With good enough oil that has good heat transfer properties, you could use it in place of coolant. IF you could do that then you'd eliminate the water pump in the block, the scavenge and oil pumps would be your water pump. The architecture of the block would have to completely change.
yes they must've found something, same as Ferrari with that Australian coolant company. Something clever because almost nothing has as much specific heat as water or as low viscosity, certainly not any oil that's in the data tables at least. It's Article 7.4 that specifies a 3.75 bar pressure relief valve in the header tank, meaning 140 degrees as you say, but only for water based systems

and haven't they banned oil in the cooling, after the Ferrari thing? Or is that just for the intercooler?

I do get the feeling HPP and Ferrari have been on the same course with their engines, anyway, and then Honda and Renault probably very close by now, as long as it hasn't all gone wrong for somebody...

User avatar
SiLo
95
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:09 pm

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

If they are talking about coolant it might be similar to the Ferrari graphene coolant.
Felipe Baby!

User avatar
izzy
69
Joined: Sun May 26, 2019 9:28 pm

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

SiLo wrote:
Tue Feb 18, 2020 2:53 pm
If they are talking about coolant it might be similar to the Ferrari graphene coolant.
the thing is with flexegraph they only talk about its conductivity, which means that it absorbs or gives off heat faster, so you can flow it faster. What Andy Cowell was saying is they've raised the coolant temperature, in order to have a bigger temperature gradient in the radiator between water and air, and give off more heat that way. And he said they've raised it so high the aluminium in the engine is degrading and they've had to work at it to get it to do 8 races. Or perhaps by the sound of it even that is getting a bit sketchy

Looking around it seems 150C is about where the degradation starts to kick in as @godlameroso was saying, and perhaps they're a bit above that. And they can't do that with pure water at 3.75 bar, which boils at 141, they must have had to add something to raise the boiling point, and most things that do that seem to reduce the specific heat, working the wrong way. Also additives can raise the viscosity meaning bigger tubes and/or pumping losses

so it must be rather cunning! It might be Flexegraph like Ferrari but so far i'm not seeing nanoparticles of graphene raising the boiling point, so i'm suspecting something else, that's new and secret :-$

Also they should've listened to me and AM'd it in steel like i was saying :lol:

dans79
dans79
251
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:33 pm
Location: USA

Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

Post

If I had to guess What Mercedes work on was tweaks to the alloy they used. Didn't they bring in a materials expert over the winter?
164 98 95 7