Mercedes W11

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
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dren
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Re: Mercedes W11

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After reading the same arguments for and against for tens of pages, it gets a bit tiring. If you have something new to add, great, if not then move on.
Honda!

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Mark4211
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Re: Mercedes W11

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They have started using other BBAL offset values apart from .5%.

Pictured: 56.8% BBAL

Image

LM10
LM10
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Re: Mercedes W11

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Mark4211 wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:37 pm
They have started using other BBAL offset values apart from .5%.

Pictured: 56.8% BBAL

https://i.imgur.com/FSWtDSI.png
What's that?

Diesel
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Re: Mercedes W11

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enri_the_red wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:08 am
I'm going back to the question I asked 2 days ago about the possibility that using the DAS might break the parc fermé rule.
1- If you think that changing the toe angle is not a suspension configuration change, would you allow the mechanics to change it by working on the steering box or moving it?
2- If the toe angle is not a suspension setup parameter, does it mean that the steering arm is not a suspension member an therefore does not count towards the six suspension members limit defined by art. 10.3.5?
The point is, the toe angle is being changed as a result of steering input, which is perfectly legal and necessary for car to actually go around a corner. If the steering input required to operate DAS is breaking parc ferme, then any steering is breaking parc ferme and all cars are illegal. There's nothing in this year's regs that specifies what the steering input should be and exactly how that should change the toe angle. If you want to understand how it's legal, compare this year's regs to next year's. Time to accept it and move on.
"Unbelievable how silly this Formula 1 is these days, with this stupid overtakes."
—Sebastian Vettel, 2012 US GP

vogonvader
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Re: Mercedes W11

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LM10 wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:42 pm
Mark4211 wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:37 pm
They have started using other BBAL offset values apart from .5%.

Pictured: 56.8% BBAL

https://i.imgur.com/FSWtDSI.png
What's that?
Brake Balance - Front/Rear

dans79
dans79
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Location: USA

Re: Mercedes W11

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LM10 wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:42 pm
Mark4211 wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:37 pm
They have started using other BBAL offset values apart from .5%.

Pictured: 56.8% BBAL

https://i.imgur.com/FSWtDSI.png
What's that?
They used to only be able to adjust brake balance in 0.5% increments. A displayed value of 56.8% suggests that they have lowered the increment to 0.2% or 0.1%.
164 98 95 7

zac510
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Re: Mercedes W11

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henry wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:10 pm
zac510 wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:46 am
enri_the_red wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:08 am
2- If the toe angle is not a suspension setup parameter, does it mean that the steering arm is not a suspension member an therefore does not count towards the six suspension members limit defined by art. 10.3.5?
Great point. And 10.3.3; Let's put a huge wing on that steering arm :D
They do. Up to the size limits in the regs. And they change the incidence with steering angle using a cam on the hub end ball joint. @Platinum Zealot posted about this recently.
You missed my point. The size limit reg you mention is 10.3.3. A steering arm is not a suspension member anymore, if this DAS is legal, so 10.3.3 doesn't apply.
Thus they can go even more extreme on the steering arm now.

ema00
ema00
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Re: Mercedes W11

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What will happen if mercedes forget to re-align the steering wheel at the end of q3/race? Will it be declared illegal for the quali/race?

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Re: Mercedes W11

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ema00 wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:02 pm
What will happen if mercedes forget to re-align the steering wheel at the end of q3/race? Will it be declared illegal for the quali/race?
i don't see the issue, i don't believe there is any rule as for how far the steering wheel needs to be in or out, nor the mandatory toe angle for the wheels. also, i think it's an impossibility, as under braking, the steering wheel goes into it's 'original' position, so the only moment there is any 'alignment' diferences is when the driver pulls the steering wheel at the straight, under a certain amount of force. when that force is no longer extorted, then the steering wheel returns to it's 'normal' position.

or i'm understanding the question wrong?
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

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henry
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Re: Mercedes W11

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enri_the_red wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 1:47 pm
henry wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:10 pm
zac510 wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 10:46 am


Great point. And 10.3.3; Let's put a huge wing on that steering arm :D
They do. Up to the size limits in the regs. And they change the incidence with steering angle using a cam on the hub end ball joint. @Platinum Zealot posted about this recently.
rules about the steering or rules about the suspensions?
Rules about suspension elements. There are allowed to be up to 6 elements per wheel. My expectation is that these are: two for the upper wishbone, two for the lower, one push or pull rod and one for the track rod (steering arm). The regulations don’t specify these and other configurations that meet these rules would have to be allowed.

IMO Steering is an alignment function using elements of the suspension not a separate physical system. The rules allow re-alignment using this function. The rule writers didn’t expect that the re- alignment might be change in toe. They do now and have written this option out of the 2021 regulations.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

Diesel
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Re: Mercedes W11

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Exactly that, the track rod is still one of the 6 elements, but it's accepted that it moves as a result of driver input through the steering wheel. What that movement should be and how it alters the direction of the front wheels isn't specified in the regs. I really really don't understand how people aren't getting this :wtf:

And no, they wouldn't be DSQ if the driver forgot to push the steering wheel forward at the end of qualifying, no more than they would be DSQ if the driver forgot to straighten the steering wheel.
"Unbelievable how silly this Formula 1 is these days, with this stupid overtakes."
—Sebastian Vettel, 2012 US GP

dans79
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Re: Mercedes W11

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Manoah2u wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 5:25 pm
also, i think it's an impossibility, as under braking, the steering wheel goes into it's 'original' position, so the only moment there is any 'alignment' diferences is when the driver pulls the steering wheel at the straight, under a certain amount of force.
I think Scarabs mentioned in the video he did for Peter Windsor, that he thought this was by design for performance and for safety reasons.
164 98 95 7

LM10
LM10
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Re: Mercedes W11

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dans79 wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:01 pm
LM10 wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:42 pm
Mark4211 wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:37 pm
They have started using other BBAL offset values apart from .5%.

Pictured: 56.8% BBAL

https://i.imgur.com/FSWtDSI.png
What's that?
They used to only be able to adjust brake balance in 0.5% increments. A displayed value of 56.8% suggests that they have lowered the increment to 0.2% or 0.1%.
Thanks! And also thanks @vogonvader.

ncx
ncx
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Re: Mercedes W11

Post

dans79 wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 4:01 pm
LM10 wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:42 pm
Mark4211 wrote:
Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:37 pm
They have started using other BBAL offset values apart from .5%.

Pictured: 56.8% BBAL

https://i.imgur.com/FSWtDSI.png
What's that?
They used to only be able to adjust brake balance in 0.5% increments. A displayed value of 56.8% suggests that they have lowered the increment to 0.2% or 0.1%.
Or they might have preset increments, maybe adjusted for the specific track. Watching on-boards should clear this. (I haven't watched much of them yet.)

PS: Just to make it clear, I am not referring to an illegal BB adjustment system.
Last edited by ncx on Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Dreameagl
Dreameagl
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Re: Mercedes W11

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I guess Mark Hughes had a moment of confusion (toe vs camber) in his article here:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... PCKC4.html
Typically an F1 car will be set up so that its front wheels are aligned with ‘toe-out’, which simply means that they splay out at the bottom away from the centre of the car, with the top pointing inwards.
:lol: :lol: :lol: