Mercedes W11

A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter does not belong here.
zibby43
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Re: Mercedes W11

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Looks like the spec with the notches is back on.

Seems the old spec was suited for the aero rig, sensors, etc.

zibby43
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Re: Mercedes W11

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Predator
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cirrusflyer
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Re: Mercedes W11

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If flying were the language of man, soaring would be its poetry.
It's all about technology!
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Morteza
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Re: Mercedes W11

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"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

GioKer32
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Re: Mercedes W11

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Matteo Bobbi from Sky Sport Italia talked about some minor changes in the endplates of the rear wing but I actually did't notice anything different. Is that true or not?

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jjn9128
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Re: Mercedes W11

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cirrusflyer wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:12 pm
Nice. No separation...
There's a small trailing edge separation towards the tips on the flap. No stall. But small separation.
#aerogandalf
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cirrusflyer
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Re: Mercedes W11

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jjn9128 wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:57 pm
cirrusflyer wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 2:12 pm
Nice. No separation...
There's a small trailing edge separation towards the tips on the flap. No stall. But small separation.
Gues that's normal! There should be some "rotor" forming behind in low pressure zone at the trailing edge. Similar to wind blowing over the ridge?
If flying were the language of man, soaring would be its poetry.
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When you go fast, do not hesitate to go faster!

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variante
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Re: Mercedes W11

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cirrusflyer wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:05 pm
Gues that's normal! There should be some "rotor" forming behind in low pressure zone at the trailing edge. Similar to wind blowing over the ridge?
Not exactly. The rotor you're talking about forms behind the Gurney Flap (when the wing has one). So, engineers want to see a perferctly smooth flow on the wing's trailing edge, which is not the case for Mercedes right now.
Not a big deal, but some minor changes might be required.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes W11

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variante wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:38 pm
cirrusflyer wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:05 pm
Gues that's normal! There should be some "rotor" forming behind in low pressure zone at the trailing edge. Similar to wind blowing over the ridge?
Not exactly. The rotor you're talking about forms behind the Gurney Flap (when the wing has one).
The Mercedes is running a Gurney flap.

It looks like there is strong lateral movement just before the trailing edge out near the endplate. Presumably being driven by the same movement that creates the wing tip vortex.
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Mattchu
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Re: Mercedes W11

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For the aero chaps.

With regards to the shot of the Mercedes rear wing and flow viz, specifically the section in the red box, is the secion which is pretty much clear just where the mechanics didn`t slap the stuff on or is it caused by the exhaust?
The reason I ask is because as this is a mostly clockwise circuit does this show how much the gases expelled are affected by the direction/rotation of the car.
So if the car is turing right [which it does a lot at Barcelona], the exhaust gas is going to pushed left [as looked at from the rear] or am I just seeing it totally wrong!

There is some clearing on the other side but nowhere near as much.

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cirrusflyer
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Re: Mercedes W11

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:55 pm
variante wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:38 pm
cirrusflyer wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:05 pm
Gues that's normal! There should be some "rotor" forming behind in low pressure zone at the trailing edge. Similar to wind blowing over the ridge?
Not exactly. The rotor you're talking about forms behind the Gurney Flap (when the wing has one).
The Mercedes is running a Gurney flap.

It looks like there is strong lateral movement just before the trailing edge out near the endplate. Presumably being driven by the same movement that creates the wing tip vortex.
There is some thinner layer of paint at the bottom of the flap. But air stays attached. I presume it is becouse air is rammed betwen RW (low part) and flap (upper part).
After that air travells up and to the side in direction to the endplate as Just_a_fan noticed. The "rotor" I mentioned is seen on the trailing edge from N (INEOS) to the part where you can see sun reflection.

@Mattchu It looks the paint was not applied at that part. It is strait. The wing is to clean. I think the enginires are looking for the air to stay attached at the part from where the curvature starts and to the trailing edge.
But I could be totaly wrong.
I am writting my thoughts and hoping some member with a knowlidge about this stuff will put some light on it and I will learn! 😀
If flying were the language of man, soaring would be its poetry.
It's all about technology!
When you go fast, do not hesitate to go faster!

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jjn9128
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Re: Mercedes W11

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cirrusflyer wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:05 pm
Gues that's normal! There should be some "rotor" forming behind in low pressure zone at the trailing edge. Similar to wind blowing over the ridge?
That is normal, the plateau part of a wings incidence-lift curve features flow separation from the trailing edge - despite the separation downforce will continue to increase but at a slower rate. Once the separation is over a large proportion of the wings surface it is said to have stalled and downforce will rapidly drop off. This level of separation just means the wing is being operated near it's maximum angle.

The Gurney flap (sometimes Nolder) is a small right angle section, 8-12mm tall typically, attached to the rear of the wing - perpendicular to the pressure surface. The flap has a turning effect on the air, creates a low pressure region behind the wing, increases pressure on the top surface, and makes the effective length (chord) of the wing longer; so increases downforce for a moderate increase of drag. It's a quick and simple method of increasing downforce for a wing.

cirrusflyer wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:39 pm
There is some thinner layer of paint at the bottom of the flap. But air stays attached. I presume it is becouse air is rammed betwen RW (low part) and flap (upper part).
After that air travells up and to the side in direction to the endplate as Just_a_fan noticed. The "rotor" I mentioned is seen on the trailing edge from N (INEOS) to the part where you can see sun reflection.
Flaps work in a number of ways, but essentially they mean you can run a bigger camber before the stall condition talked about above. Bigger cambers mean bigger pressures so more downforce, but also bigger adverse pressure gradients so the stall condition occurs at smaller angles of attack. One of the things the flap does is introduce a fresh laminar boundary layer into the flow, on this wing you can see that. You then see what's called a laminar separation bubble (around the bottom of the sponsor logo there's a thin section ~10mm long which looks different) where the air separates but reattaches with a turbulent boundary layer.

Mattchu wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:23 pm
For the aero chaps.

With regards to the shot of the Mercedes rear wing and flow viz, specifically the section in the red box, is the secion which is pretty much clear just where the mechanics didn`t slap the stuff on or is it caused by the exhaust?
The reason I ask is because as this is a mostly clockwise circuit does this show how much the gases expelled are affected by the direction/rotation of the car.
So if the car is turing right [which it does a lot at Barcelona], the exhaust gas is going to pushed left [as looked at from the rear] or am I just seeing it totally wrong!

There is some clearing on the other side but nowhere near as much.
It's just where the flowvis wasn't painted on.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

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cirrusflyer
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Re: Mercedes W11

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jjn9128 wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:55 pm
cirrusflyer wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:05 pm
Gues that's normal! There should be some "rotor" forming behind in low pressure zone at the trailing edge. Similar to wind blowing over the ridge?
That is normal, the plateau part of a wings incidence-lift curve features flow separation from the trailing edge - despite the separation downforce will continue to increase but at a slower rate. Once the separation is over a large proportion of the wings surface it is said to have stalled and downforce will rapidly drop off. This level of separation just means the wing is being operated near it's maximum angle.

The Gurney flap (sometimes Nolder) is a small right angle section, 8-12mm tall typically, attached to the rear of the wing - perpendicular to the pressure surface. The flap has a turning effect on the air, creates a low pressure region behind the wing, increases pressure on the top surface, and makes the effective length (chord) of the wing longer; so increases downforce for a moderate increase of drag. It's a quick and simple method of increasing downforce for a wing.

cirrusflyer wrote:
Wed Feb 26, 2020 4:39 pm
There is some thinner layer of paint at the bottom of the flap. But air stays attached. I presume it is becouse air is rammed betwen RW (low part) and flap (upper part).
After that air travells up and to the side in direction to the endplate as Just_a_fan noticed. The "rotor" I mentioned is seen on the trailing edge from N (INEOS) to the part where you can see sun reflection.
Flaps work in a number of ways, but essentially they mean you can run a bigger camber before the stall condition talked about above. Bigger cambers mean bigger pressures so more downforce, but also bigger adverse pressure gradients so the stall condition occurs at smaller angles of attack. One of the things the flap does is introduce a fresh laminar boundary layer into the flow, on this wing you can see that. You then see what's called a laminar separation bubble (around the bottom of the sponsor logo there's a thin section ~10mm long which looks different) where the air separates but reattaches with a turbulent boundary layer.
@jjn9128 Tnx!
Appriciate your answer 😀!
If flying were the language of man, soaring would be its poetry.
It's all about technology!
When you go fast, do not hesitate to go faster!

zibby43
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Re: Mercedes W11

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Heave spring comparison.

Mercedes still using the Belleville washers they adopted toward the end of last season.

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