FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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Chene_Mostert
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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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scarnegie96 wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:18 pm
Chene_Mostert wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:13 pm
AMG.Tzan wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:56 am
Expected to be honest!

I mean what was the FIA and Ferrari expecting the others to do?? Say...oooh so nice of you that you settled it that way! After all both Mercedes and Mclaren were the ones that got a 100M fine and an exclusion for things that even Ron Dennis himself didn't know! Ferrari knew as a team what they were doing...if they were truly cheating then this should be an exclusion from the 2019 WCC!

An exclusion for Ferrari means more money for the other teams from gaining a higher place in the WCC! So no shock here seeing all the other teams getting together on this!

The question is: Were Ferrari cheating or did they just find a loophole within the Engine Regulations to make more Horsepower?? Because if it was a loophole...then you can't blame someone for being clever! But if it was a loophole like Mercedes's oil burning thing...wouldn't they just close the loophole for next season and say...oh we've found this loophole...we'll just close it?? For FIA to release such a statement it really looks suspicious! :?
If they found a "loophole", do they need to disclose it to other teams?
If they found a way of running the PU more efficiently within the confines of the regulation, do they need to disclose it to anyone outside of the FIA?
The "settlement" could just be that. We checked, they have some "clever" tech, and it all operates within the control measures put in place. The team does not want to disclose their "invention" so we came to a settlement.
Surely they would've have come out saying that the PU was fully compliant with the regulations then? Rather than a vague 'settlement'.

The fact that it was such a settlement really means to me that the FIA could not fully prove that Ferrari where breaking the rules, but weren't 100% on the legality either.
Has any legal statement ever been "not vauge"...
"Science at its best is an open-minded method of inquiry, not a belief system." - Rupert Sheldrake

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RedNEO
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Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:58 am

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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Chene_Mostert wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:13 pm
AMG.Tzan wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:56 am
Expected to be honest!

I mean what was the FIA and Ferrari expecting the others to do?? Say...oooh so nice of you that you settled it that way! After all both Mercedes and Mclaren were the ones that got a 100M fine and an exclusion for things that even Ron Dennis himself didn't know! Ferrari knew as a team what they were doing...if they were truly cheating then this should be an exclusion from the 2019 WCC!

An exclusion for Ferrari means more money for the other teams from gaining a higher place in the WCC! So no shock here seeing all the other teams getting together on this!

The question is: Were Ferrari cheating or did they just find a loophole within the Engine Regulations to make more Horsepower?? Because if it was a loophole...then you can't blame someone for being clever! But if it was a loophole like Mercedes's oil burning thing...wouldn't they just close the loophole for next season and say...oh we've found this loophole...we'll just close it?? For FIA to release such a statement it really looks suspicious! :?
If they found a "loophole", do they need to disclose it to other teams?
If they found a way of running the PU more efficiently within the confines of the regulation, do they need to disclose it to anyone outside of the FIA?
The "settlement" could just be that. We checked, they have some "clever" tech, and it all operates within the control measures put in place. The team does not want to disclose their "invention" so we came to a settlement.
That “invention” obviously isn’t legal or they would have said so. Therefore it is the FIA’s responsibility to fully disclose what it was without any shady backroom door deals. This is a governing body after all.

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Red Rock Mutley
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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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The FIA have undoubtedly handling this badly, but I do believe the underlying principal is sound and reasonable. If the means to increase power output is a novel approach, there's very little the FIA can do. TD's can only stretch so far, as they're meant to clarify the regulations, not create new ones. If the novel approach is completely outside the intent of the wording of the regulations, a new regulation is required. Which in itself can not be introduced at short notice (albeit exceptions apply). So the FIA appear to have been in a situation where they wanted to stop Ferrari doing something, but were unable to regulate against it; hence a gentleman's agreement is the most sensible way forward. Having said that, if I were Ferrari, I would be pointing at the Mercedes and saying, isn't DAS the same situation, and if they're not having a gentleman's agreement not to use it, why are we?
Last edited by Red Rock Mutley on Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Chene_Mostert
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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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JonoNic wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:12 pm
Jip wrote:Been waiting for this. It's good that teams take action and trying to find out what this 'settlement' is and what Ferrari did wrong last year. Really curious to see what comes next now.
Not just a simple thing like Ferrari did something 'wrong last year' then two parties will be in trouble. Ferrari because of what they did but the bigger problem is that the FIA trying to cover it up with that statement. If the FIA understands this then there will be a big battle to protect the integrity of the FIA.
What did they do wrong?
Did any team lodge a protest?
Did race stewards ever report tampering with FF meter?
Did stewards ever raise concern that FF is exceeded?
"Science at its best is an open-minded method of inquiry, not a belief system." - Rupert Sheldrake

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Chene_Mostert
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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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RedNEO wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:22 pm
Chene_Mostert wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:13 pm
AMG.Tzan wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:56 am
Expected to be honest!

I mean what was the FIA and Ferrari expecting the others to do?? Say...oooh so nice of you that you settled it that way! After all both Mercedes and Mclaren were the ones that got a 100M fine and an exclusion for things that even Ron Dennis himself didn't know! Ferrari knew as a team what they were doing...if they were truly cheating then this should be an exclusion from the 2019 WCC!

An exclusion for Ferrari means more money for the other teams from gaining a higher place in the WCC! So no shock here seeing all the other teams getting together on this!

The question is: Were Ferrari cheating or did they just find a loophole within the Engine Regulations to make more Horsepower?? Because if it was a loophole...then you can't blame someone for being clever! But if it was a loophole like Mercedes's oil burning thing...wouldn't they just close the loophole for next season and say...oh we've found this loophole...we'll just close it?? For FIA to release such a statement it really looks suspicious! :?
If they found a "loophole", do they need to disclose it to other teams?
If they found a way of running the PU more efficiently within the confines of the regulation, do they need to disclose it to anyone outside of the FIA?
The "settlement" could just be that. We checked, they have some "clever" tech, and it all operates within the control measures put in place. The team does not want to disclose their "invention" so we came to a settlement.
That “invention” obviously isn’t legal or they would have said so. Therefore it is the FIA’s responsibility to fully disclose what it was without any shady backroom door deals. This is a governing body after all.
How do you conclude its not "legal" and state that it is obvious.
Did you investigate?
"Science at its best is an open-minded method of inquiry, not a belief system." - Rupert Sheldrake

molina
molina
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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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IMHO, the decision of the rest of the teams in going further with this means that they know what the trick used by Ferrari is all about (due to the whistle-blower) and are sure it is illegal.
They look forward a disqualification -and money prize re-shared - rather than just a disclosure of the trick.

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JonoNic
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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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Chene_Mostert wrote:
JonoNic wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:12 pm
Jip wrote:Been waiting for this. It's good that teams take action and trying to find out what this 'settlement' is and what Ferrari did wrong last year. Really curious to see what comes next now.
Not just a simple thing like Ferrari did something 'wrong last year' then two parties will be in trouble. Ferrari because of what they did but the bigger problem is that the FIA trying to cover it up with that statement. If the FIA understands this then there will be a big battle to protect the integrity of the FIA.
What did they do wrong?
Did any team lodge a protest?
Did race stewards ever report tampering with FF meter?
Did stewards ever raise concern that FF is exceeded?
Chene_Mostert. I torally agree with you, there's no evidence pointing that Ferrari did something wrong. I shouldn't have entertained this unfounded statement by replying to it.
Always find the gap then use it.

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RedNEO
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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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Chene_Mostert wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:25 pm
JonoNic wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:12 pm
Jip wrote:Been waiting for this. It's good that teams take action and trying to find out what this 'settlement' is and what Ferrari did wrong last year. Really curious to see what comes next now.
Not just a simple thing like Ferrari did something 'wrong last year' then two parties will be in trouble. Ferrari because of what they did but the bigger problem is that the FIA trying to cover it up with that statement. If the FIA understands this then there will be a big battle to protect the integrity of the FIA.
What did they do wrong?
Did any team lodge a protest?
Did race stewards ever report tampering with FF meter?
Did stewards ever raise concern that FF is exceeded?
What did they do wrong? Well that’s what the teams are trying to find out and the FIA is not disclosing.

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214270
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Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2019 5:49 pm

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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Chene_Mostert wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:25 pm
JonoNic wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:12 pm
Jip wrote:Been waiting for this. It's good that teams take action and trying to find out what this 'settlement' is and what Ferrari did wrong last year. Really curious to see what comes next now.
Not just a simple thing like Ferrari did something 'wrong last year' then two parties will be in trouble. Ferrari because of what they did but the bigger problem is that the FIA trying to cover it up with that statement. If the FIA understands this then there will be a big battle to protect the integrity of the FIA.
What did they do wrong?
Did any team lodge a protest?
Did race stewards ever report tampering with FF meter?
Did stewards ever raise concern that FF is exceeded?
We are beyond this now.

The FIA seized a Ferrari Engine last year as well as a Honda for in depth examination. Only Ferrari’s PU has been the subject of this extraordinary statement & settlement. The results of the investigation should be published.
Team ANTI-HYPE. Prove it, then I’ll anoint you.

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outsid3r
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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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The FIA aren't stupid. If they released such a statement they are probably anticipated that there were going to be clowns trying to lead a protest with the intent of revealing what the settlement was. But I do understand Merc making this move, and have everyone looking into something which happened last year rather than focusing on what is going on at the moment.

I like how everyone praises Merc for the (very very borderline) DAS system but is totally convinced that Ferrari was doing something wrong last year for a statement that reveals absolutely nothing!

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Chene_Mostert
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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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214270 wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:32 pm
Chene_Mostert wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:25 pm
JonoNic wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:12 pm
Not just a simple thing like Ferrari did something 'wrong last year' then two parties will be in trouble. Ferrari because of what they did but the bigger problem is that the FIA trying to cover it up with that statement. If the FIA understands this then there will be a big battle to protect the integrity of the FIA.
What did they do wrong?
Did any team lodge a protest?
Did race stewards ever report tampering with FF meter?
Did stewards ever raise concern that FF is exceeded?
We are beyond this now.

The FIA seized a Ferrari Engine last year as well as a Honda for in depth examination. Only Ferrari’s PU has been the subject of this extraordinary statement & settlement. The results of the investigation should be published.
They did.
"Science at its best is an open-minded method of inquiry, not a belief system." - Rupert Sheldrake

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turbof1
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Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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Chene_Mostert wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:35 pm
214270 wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:32 pm
Chene_Mostert wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:25 pm


What did they do wrong?
Did any team lodge a protest?
Did race stewards ever report tampering with FF meter?
Did stewards ever raise concern that FF is exceeded?
We are beyond this now.

The FIA seized a Ferrari Engine last year as well as a Honda for in depth examination. Only Ferrari’s PU has been the subject of this extraordinary statement & settlement. The results of the investigation should be published.
They did.
They did not. Would you please stop trolling? I agree we shouldn't take Ferrari as guilty without knowing the contents, but every rational and reasonal person out there agrees this is a very shady practice from the FIA, where they said literally nothing with a lot of words regarding the results of the investigation.
#AeroFrodo

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Chene_Mostert
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Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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RedNEO wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:32 pm
Chene_Mostert wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:25 pm
JonoNic wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:12 pm
Not just a simple thing like Ferrari did something 'wrong last year' then two parties will be in trouble. Ferrari because of what they did but the bigger problem is that the FIA trying to cover it up with that statement. If the FIA understands this then there will be a big battle to protect the integrity of the FIA.
What did they do wrong?
Did any team lodge a protest?
Did race stewards ever report tampering with FF meter?
Did stewards ever raise concern that FF is exceeded?
What did they do wrong? Well that’s what the teams are trying to find out and the FIA is not disclosing.
No, the "other" team is trying to find out, what are they doing. Not what are they doing wrong.
The FIA is under no obligation to disclose design info.
They already disclosed too much regarding the Ferrari ES. The FIA should never have allowed AMG to dictate to them the way they did with this matter.
"Science at its best is an open-minded method of inquiry, not a belief system." - Rupert Sheldrake

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turbof1
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Location: MountDoom CFD Matrix

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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outsid3r wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:35 pm
The FIA aren't stupid. If they released such a statement they are probably anticipated that there were going to be clowns trying to lead a protest with the intent of revealing what the settlement was. But I do understand Merc making this move, and have everyone looking into something which happened last year rather than focusing on what is going on at the moment.

I like how everyone praises Merc for the (very very borderline) DAS system but is totally convinced that Ferrari was doing something wrong last year for a statement that reveals absolutely nothing!
It has an aura of desparation about it regarding the FIA, maybe literally a case of "doomed if they did, doomed if they didn't".

I agree we should not automatically accept guild towards Ferrari. However, given this is so out of line for the FIA to do so, with the timing and none-disclosal of information, there is something behind this. People are right to be suspicious at the very least. Everybody should be rational and open minded, but let us not faint naïvity.
#AeroFrodo

DChemTech
DChemTech
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Location: Delft, NL

Re: FIA-Ferrari PU Statement Controversy

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Chene_Mostert wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:13 pm
AMG.Tzan wrote:
Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:56 am
Expected to be honest!

I mean what was the FIA and Ferrari expecting the others to do?? Say...oooh so nice of you that you settled it that way! After all both Mercedes and Mclaren were the ones that got a 100M fine and an exclusion for things that even Ron Dennis himself didn't know! Ferrari knew as a team what they were doing...if they were truly cheating then this should be an exclusion from the 2019 WCC!

An exclusion for Ferrari means more money for the other teams from gaining a higher place in the WCC! So no shock here seeing all the other teams getting together on this!

The question is: Were Ferrari cheating or did they just find a loophole within the Engine Regulations to make more Horsepower?? Because if it was a loophole...then you can't blame someone for being clever! But if it was a loophole like Mercedes's oil burning thing...wouldn't they just close the loophole for next season and say...oh we've found this loophole...we'll just close it?? For FIA to release such a statement it really looks suspicious! :?
If they found a "loophole", do they need to disclose it to other teams?
If they found a way of running the PU more efficiently within the confines of the regulation, do they need to disclose it to anyone outside of the FIA?
The "settlement" could just be that. We checked, they have some "clever" tech, and it all operates within the control measures put in place. The team does not want to disclose their "invention" so we came to a settlement.
Well, I can essentially imagine two things that could be going on here:

1) It's a loophole and a loophole is, in essence, legal. So in that case, FIA could have come out with a statement like "after thorough investigation of the power unit we have concluded that there is no misconduct from the side of Ferrari. To protect the intellectual property of the team, we will not disclose the nature of the technology under scrutiny". If needed, they could point to specific regulations that the solution was found not to violate. Since in this case fuel flow seems to be the controversial aspect, they could explicitly state that the technology used by Ferrari did not violate those specific clauses in the rulebook. In any case, there would be no need to talk of a 'settlement' and the associated community service Ferrari is engaging in. So if the issue was just something clever that is legal, the situation could have been handled much, much better.

2) The technology was either legal to the letter, but obviously against the spirit of the rules/There was hints of illegality but no proven illegality/the technology was legal according to one interpretation, but had side effects that were up for discussion (e.g. what if the main effect of DAS would be aerodynamic?). In that case, the dispute may not be as cut and clear as in case (1), either to the side of legality or illegality, and in this shady territory a settlement could be opted for. A sort of confession of "we know it was wrong, but technically we were not blocked from doing it". Still, I would argue one could be more clear than the current statement. Something like "The FIA has conducted investigation regarding clause [XYZ] of the technical regulations and was not able to quantify any misconduct on behalf of Ferrari according to the written rules, but it has been established that the technology implemented in the Ferrari engine does allow for exploitation of [higher fuel flows or whatever], which is against the intent of clause [XYZ]. In lieu of a tangible violation, FIA and Ferrari have decided to settle the matter for... [disclose the settlement]".

You can get quite far in naming the violation that is suspected without having to disclose the technological aspects of said violation and thereby compromising the team under investigation, both when the solution is fully legal and when the solution is questionable but not outright illegal. FIA has opted not to do this, and that is a gross violation of the integrity and impartiality a ruling body in any sport should have.
Last edited by DChemTech on Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.