I am pretty sure Garrett said so themselves. Similar tech is used. Why not?saviour stivala wrote: ↑05 Mar 2020, 15:41“This is the early prototype” certainly nothing to do with what is used in formula one.
PM rotorBandit1216 wrote: ↑05 Mar 2020, 13:54Perhaps covered multiple times before, but do we know what kind of motor/generator the Mgu-h is with regard to excitement / permanent magnet / induction / stator / rotor?
Is it possible to insulate permanent magnet when needed free spinBandit1216 wrote: ↑05 Mar 2020, 13:54Perhaps covered multiple times before, but do we know what kind of motor/generator the Mgu-h is with regard to excitement / permanent magnet / induction / stator / rotor?PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑05 Mar 2020, 13:03There would be no "electrically decoupling part" as you are imagining. No additional hardware on the rotating shaft is needed.saviour stivala wrote: ↑05 Mar 2020, 07:52“The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the pressure charging system. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine and may be clutched”.
The MGU-H being an electrical motor can of course be ‘decoupled’ electrically from the exhaust turbine, in which case the MGU-H electrically decoupled rotating part which is coupled to the exhaust turbine is still rotated by the exhaust turbine.
The advantage of having the MGU-H clutched to the exhaust turbine is the ability of eliminating the electrically decoupled rotating part from having to rotate with the exhaust turbine.
I believe that all four power unites employ a clutch between turbine and MGU-H because where there is an advantage nobody is going to skip-it.
I worked in the power industry and none of the generators had clutches. We could change the load and "decouple" electrically using excitation control and relays (to breakers) respectively. There was no addtional mechanical hardware on the driveline.
In F1 it is a no brainer to go with the solution that is lighter and offeres better control.
This is the same in electric cars. This is what the power electrionics does.
Do you mean isolate the magnettic field?etusch wrote: ↑05 Mar 2020, 19:54Is it possible to insulate permanent magnet when needed free spinBandit1216 wrote: ↑05 Mar 2020, 13:54Perhaps covered multiple times before, but do we know what kind of motor/generator the Mgu-h is with regard to excitement / permanent magnet / induction / stator / rotor?PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑05 Mar 2020, 13:03
There would be no "electrically decoupling part" as you are imagining. No additional hardware on the rotating shaft is needed.
I worked in the power industry and none of the generators had clutches. We could change the load and "decouple" electrically using excitation control and relays (to breakers) respectively. There was no addtional mechanical hardware on the driveline.
In F1 it is a no brainer to go with the solution that is lighter and offeres better control.
This is the same in electric cars. This is what the power electrionics does.
~80kW has been a common estimate.
YesBandit1216 wrote: ↑05 Mar 2020, 21:46Do you mean isolate the magnettic field?etusch wrote: ↑05 Mar 2020, 19:54Is it possible to insulate permanent magnet when needed free spinBandit1216 wrote: ↑05 Mar 2020, 13:54
Perhaps covered multiple times before, but do we know what kind of motor/generator the Mgu-h is with regard to excitement / permanent magnet / induction / stator / rotor?
.....PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑05 Mar 2020, 14:35@Ghost and @Stivala
Too long to respond in detail.
I am gonna leave this here courtesy of Garrett :
Notice there are no clutch mechanisms.
https://www.garrettmotion.com/electric- ... t-e-turbo/
https://www.garrettmotion.com/wp-conten ... 30x500.jpg
Guys remember the turbochargers speed is not as variable and inefficient as in street cars. We want it to maintain a certain speed range to be in boost as much as possible. So the increased moment of inertia is not that detrimental as you might think. In fact a clutch might be heavier and prone to wear and thus failure.
That is a 2-stage electric compressor, nothing to do with an Eturbo. Both sides are compressor stages, the left side is the low-pressure stage, the air flows out of it, through the crossover tube into the high-pressure stage on the right then they use is to supply compressed air to fuel cells.PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑05 Mar 2020, 14:53This is what the early prototypes looked like.
https://www.trucks.com/wp-content/uploa ... ressor.jpg
Garrett states that this technology is used in formula 1.GhostF1 wrote: ↑05 Mar 2020, 23:30.....PlatinumZealot wrote: ↑05 Mar 2020, 14:35@Ghost and @Stivala
Too long to respond in detail.
I am gonna leave this here courtesy of Garrett :
Notice there are no clutch mechanisms.
https://www.garrettmotion.com/electric- ... t-e-turbo/
https://www.garrettmotion.com/wp-conten ... 30x500.jpg
Guys remember the turbochargers speed is not as variable and inefficient as in street cars. We want it to maintain a certain speed range to be in boost as much as possible. So the increased moment of inertia is not that detrimental as you might think. In fact a clutch might be heavier and prone to wear and thus failure.
I mean no offence here but I don't think you're grasping what is being discussed so we'll agree to just drop it so this thread doesn't grow 20 pages.
What I will say is what you posted has no relevance to the system that is employed in Formula 1 and is also not restricted by a set of regulations that prevent certain operations.
ie. The use of a clutch is driven by the restrictive regulations and the ingenuity of the engineers to compensate for that and find away around said rules.
It’s one I’ve used myself and was “confirmed” when Andy Cowell suggested the max discharge on the ES at 200kW.
Very small inertia advantage (which is easily overcome by motoring the assembly with the MGUH) versus a significant reliability risk and a small weight penalty.saviour stivala wrote: ↑05 Mar 2020, 07:52“The MGU-H must be solely mechanically linked to the pressure charging system. This mechanical link must be of fixed speed ratio to the exhaust turbine and may be clutched”.
The MGU-H being an electrical motor can of course be ‘decoupled’ electrically from the exhaust turbine, in which case the MGU-H electrically decoupled rotating part which is coupled to the exhaust turbine is still rotated by the exhaust turbine.
The advantage of having the MGU-H clutched to the exhaust turbine is the ability of eliminating the electrically decoupled rotating part from having to rotate with the exhaust turbine.
I believe that all four power unites employ a clutch between turbine and MGU-H because where there is an advantage nobody is going to skip-it.