Regenerative systems (KERS)

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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safeaschuck
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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O.K. so I read about 10 pages and watched the videos above now. They seem to use a combined alternator/motor unit to collect and output knetic energy on the elctrical systems so it MUST be bye-bye alternator then...?

According to the flybrid website they solved the vacuum sealed high speed bearing problem as long as 18 months ago, my apologies for doubting them, my info was to say the least, out of date.

And the jigsaw peices (mainly whiteblue's link [above] and a mention of an 'electromotor' [wooo] elsewhere) seem to suggest there is no mechanical linkage between engine and flywheel on the Williams flywheel system, meaning Honda would be the only ones planning to use the Flybrid system? or would have been...

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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I don't know what Brawn is planning in terms of KERS but to me it looks like all teams will have water cooled motor/generators which are controlled by water cooled electronic inverters. Storage is the main difference. Williuams use Flywheels with integral motor Generator capability in the wheel. The other teams probably use chemical batteries of some kind (lithium/Ion). I havn't heard of a team using supercaps. The Torotrac solution seems to be out of the race, at least I havn't seen any team, mention it.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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safeaschuck
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O.K. More research, apologies if people have seen this before.

Magneti Marelli has revealed it is to join Flybrid, Williams, Zytek and Bosch in offering an off the shelf solution for Formula 1. Its KERS is capable of a maximum energy storage of 400Kj per lap with a maximum 60Kw power boost as per the regulations. The system itself is fairly conventional, using a single liquid cooled brushless direct current motor generator unit (MGU), which operates at around 120 degrees C. Also included in the system is an in house designed KERS Control Unit (KCU) with a similar temperature capability. The battery pack is an ousourced part due to the complex chemistry involved in its development.
It was developed with a team (many suspect Ferrari) and is fully integrated with that operations powertain and is not an optional extra like some other systems.


Image

It appers you are bang on white blue, those certainly look like connectors for coolant. Do you think there's some planetary reduction box in that billet nosecone? Looks like it's rigged to go onto the crank although it's going to need more support than that eh?...

I can only hope that me muddling through under the scrupulous eyes of those that already know may provide a little information to those others who haven't looked this far into it yet:)

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safeaschuck
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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Dur, I am having a major head slapping moment, it's all out there, sorry to have wasted valuable space asking stupid questions.

Here is an excellent article about the Bosch Kers system which allows use with batteries or flywheels (up to 4 flywheels to counteract the gyroscopic effect).

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/arti ... dular.html

I would love to have posted some of the pictures up here but the fine magazine that it seems sponsers this site deserves many extra hits on their website for explaining it to me, not to mention copyright issues, which I forgot about on my last post, sorry, sorry, sorry. eek.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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From the official F1 site
Playing catch-up on KERS costing Ferrari
Ferrari have admitted that they are still behind schedule on development of their KERS system for 2009 - and that the costs have exceeded expectations. They are currently evaluating cars both with and without the system.

KERS (Kinetic Energy Recovery Systems), optional for next season, harness waste energy generated by the car under braking and convert it into additional power which can be accessed by the driver via a ‘boost button’.

"It's a great challenge," Ferrari’s technical director Aldo Costa, engine and electronics director Gilles Simon and planner Nikolas Tombazis told reporters at Maranello. "As far as the engine and the electronics are concerned costs went down, but with the KERS we spent much more than we had planned.

"We're working a lot on the energy recovery system. We're a bit behind on our schedule, but our goal is to be ready with a working KERS for the first race, which will be held in Australia. Meanwhile we're also appraising the car without KERS."

Ferrari are due to complete their 2008 testing programme in Portugal on Wednesday.
It sounds bad for Ferrari. Remenber that there are only four tests in 2009 until the first race.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

pipex
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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In the BMW F1 page there are some bits of information regarding KERS. One interesting thing is they say that their motor/generator is composite made, versus the one from Magneti Marelli above, that seems to be made from a metal (aluminum, titanium?, only guesses). I don't know which would be better... Maybe the composite one could resist more heat (like carbon versus steel brakes) and be more lightweight, dunno.
"We will have to wait and see".

riff_raff
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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There used to be an old saying in racing that "the fastest driver around a track is always the one that carries the most speed through a corner".

So in effect, you don't really want a KERS (Kinetic Energy Recovery System) as much as you want a KECS (Kinetic Energy Conservation System). And the most effective KECS has always been a skilled driver.
"Q: How do you make a small fortune in racing?
A: Start with a large one!"

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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but it never hurts to have the faster car..... ;-)
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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safeaschuck
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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I'm not sure on that pipex... composite would seem to be the way to go wouldn't it? but I think the metal usually helps pass heat into the coolant better, as well as acting as something of a heatsink itself.
I would say thats a plain old ally casting there, you can see the finish.
I'm cant be 100% on this but as far as I know they tend seal magnesium castings with ultraseal due to either porosity or corrosion issues (tends to be thinner walled than ally as well and this may exagerate the porosity problem) this creates dicoloration of the metal and makes it look ugly so they finish it in black to hide it.
Also I don't think they cast Titanuim much, maybe for smaller highly complex/crucial suspension parts and engine internals??? or parts which don't change very often, like wheelnuts (although those could be forged) But a big old lump like that... I doubt it.
I guess what struck me about it though is how low tech it looks, Like it's for the 'tier 2' or even 'Club racer' market. I suppose it's early days though eh?

pipex
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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Thanks safeaschuck for the information (i don't know very much about materials and that things), and i agree, it looks very low tech :P
Well, as Ferrari said in this part they have the most problems so maybe its only a prototype...
"We will have to wait and see".

alex1015
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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Maybe I'm a bit of a moron but why would KERS attach at the crank. I thought for sure it would make to most sense for it to attach after the transmission in the diff.

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safeaschuck
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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Mx, it was Just a guess, and not a very good one, based on what the casing looked like. I would have though if it were mouted in the transmission area it would have more lugs to brace it against the surrounding componentry, I'm guessing there's not much to bolt to if it came out other end, except the drivers butt. The Rpm's would be a bit high though, hence the thought of the reduction box. Although the more I think about it, the more stupid it sounds. The driver can't go forward and he can't sit on top if it...
I suppose the main advantage would be that the crank would be the shaft with the most consistent RPM's over the course of a lap wouldn't it? (somewhere between 15,000-18,000 for most of it? as opposed to the gearbox which would be a multiple of road speed which would vary more widely) meaning they can optimise the generator's output over a narrower rev range, making it more efficent size for size and therefore smaller and lighter...
But I'm still stabbing in the dark, Electical feilds are certainly not my strong point so sorry if I'm leading anyone up the garden path.

There's some youtube video's/c.a.d. animations posted a page or two back showing three possible varients. 1 is the seemingly defunct Mechanical flywheel, and 2 different electrical motor mounting positions, one being off the crank I think. Unfortunatly I'm usually only able to use dial up so I can't watch it again for a while. The vidoes seem to have been put together by Ferrari (nice to see they are doing something for their $80mill!, actually they probably get all that kind of work at ridiculous fee's on top eh?).

pitlaneimmigrant
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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I suppose the main advantage would be that the crank would be the shaft with the most consistent RPM's over the course of a lap wouldn't it? (somewhere between 15,000-18,000 for most of it? as opposed to the gearbox which would be a multiple of road speed which would vary more widely) meaning they can optimise the generator's output over a narrower rev range, making it more efficient size for size and therefore smaller and lighter...
Exactly. Also having the KERS system running off the engine allows the CoG to be further forward

donskar
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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Ferrari are attempting to address their problems with KERS by putting a new hire in charge of that area: Thierry Baritaud, a Frenchman who Linkedin.com identifies as:

Head of Engine fluid dynamic and combustion
Bologna Area, Italy

He has books like Direct Numerical Simulation for Turbulent Reacting Flows to his credit, with chapter titles that make my brain hurt.

We Tifosi will hope he helps. A LOT!
Enzo Ferrari was a great man. But he was not a good man. -- Phil Hill

pipex
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Re: Regenerative systems (KERS)

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Here is the BMW link for some bits of KERS information http://www.bmw-sauber-f1.com/en/#/car/engine/~1|0/. It looks that the motor is connected to the crank. Another reason for this could be to use the motor as a engine starter. From what i have read, the regulations don't seem to prevent this kind of use.
"We will have to wait and see".