Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
rgava
rgava
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:17 pm
The turbocharger (Turbine) safe maximum RPM depends on the turbine diameter (tip blades speed). If the rotational speed (RPM) of the MGU-H being used is the maximum permitted (125000rpm) and the maximum rotational speed (RPM) of the turbocharger being used is less, the MGU-H have to be geared at the appropriate ratio. Example: MGU-K max rpm 50000 to crankshaft max rpm 15000 (and also may be clutched). This fixed speed ratio is achieved through the use of a tiny planetary gearbox, in the case of the split-turbo set-up with the MGU-H sitting in between the turbine and compressor, the gearbox would be at one end of MGU-H hollow drive/input shaft which the turbine/compressor shaft is passing through. And a sprag-type of one-way clutch will be the simplest and least complicated type of clutch to use.
Seems you still don't understand the behavior of a spray clutch.
If you put one on the link between the turbo shaft and the MGU-H, then you stop being able to perform one of the funcions. Either you have a motor unit able to spin the turbo but not able to generate or you have a generator unit, recovering energy from the turbo shaft, but not able to propel it (anti lag function).

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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rgava wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:26 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:17 pm
The turbocharger (Turbine) safe maximum RPM depends on the turbine diameter (tip blades speed). If the rotational speed (RPM) of the MGU-H being used is the maximum permitted (125000rpm) and the maximum rotational speed (RPM) of the turbocharger being used is less, the MGU-H have to be geared at the appropriate ratio. Example: MGU-K max rpm 50000 to crankshaft max rpm 15000 (and also may be clutched). This fixed speed ratio is achieved through the use of a tiny planetary gearbox, in the case of the split-turbo set-up with the MGU-H sitting in between the turbine and compressor, the gearbox would be at one end of MGU-H hollow drive/input shaft which the turbine/compressor shaft is passing through. And a sprag-type of one-way clutch will be the simplest and least complicated type of clutch to use.
Seems you still don't understand the behavior of a spray clutch.
If you put one on the link between the turbo shaft and the MGU-H, then you stop being able to perform one of the funcions. Either you have a motor unit able to spin the turbo but not able to generate or you have a generator unit, recovering energy from the turbo shaft, but not able to propel it (anti lag function).
A sprag type of one way clutch (freewheel) that can also be lockable when drive changes input sides was actually developed by Honda. Physically tiny and can transmit the power of the engine. If interested (before firing salvos) refer to: Honda ‘pdf’ F1-files, development of seamless shift for formula one car.

rgava
rgava
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:49 pm
rgava wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:26 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:17 pm
The turbocharger (Turbine) safe maximum RPM depends on the turbine diameter (tip blades speed). If the rotational speed (RPM) of the MGU-H being used is the maximum permitted (125000rpm) and the maximum rotational speed (RPM) of the turbocharger being used is less, the MGU-H have to be geared at the appropriate ratio. Example: MGU-K max rpm 50000 to crankshaft max rpm 15000 (and also may be clutched). This fixed speed ratio is achieved through the use of a tiny planetary gearbox, in the case of the split-turbo set-up with the MGU-H sitting in between the turbine and compressor, the gearbox would be at one end of MGU-H hollow drive/input shaft which the turbine/compressor shaft is passing through. And a sprag-type of one-way clutch will be the simplest and least complicated type of clutch to use.
Seems you still don't understand the behavior of a spray clutch.
If you put one on the link between the turbo shaft and the MGU-H, then you stop being able to perform one of the funcions. Either you have a motor unit able to spin the turbo but not able to generate or you have a generator unit, recovering energy from the turbo shaft, but not able to propel it (anti lag function).
A sprag type of one way clutch (freewheel) that can also be lockable when drive changes input sides was actually developed by Honda. Physically tiny and can transmit the power of the engine. If interested (before firing salvos) refer to: Honda ‘pdf’ F1-files, development of seamless shift for formula one car.
You are still confusing direction if rotation with torque flow direction.
There are bi- directional sprat clutches which can transmit torque in both rotational directions, but allways from input shaft to output shaft: [https://www.formsprag.com/products/Spec ... /RL-Series].

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:17 pm
The turbocharger (Turbine) safe maximum RPM depends on the turbine diameter (tip blades speed). If the rotational speed (RPM) of the MGU-H being used is the maximum permitted (125000rpm) and the maximum rotational speed (RPM) of the turbocharger being used is less, the MGU-H have to be geared at the appropriate ratio. Example: MGU-K max rpm 50000 to crankshaft max rpm 15000 (and also may be clutched). This fixed speed ratio is achieved through the use of a tiny planetary gearbox, in the case of the split-turbo set-up with the MGU-H sitting in between the turbine and compressor, the gearbox would be at one end of MGU-H hollow drive/input shaft which the turbine/compressor shaft is passing through. And a sprag-type of one-way clutch will be the simplest and least complicated type of clutch to use.
Sy why not simply used the same shaft?
And take that same shaft the armature of the electrical (as Garrett does)

Benefits..
Fixed ratio of 1:1
No gears for efficiency loss
No need for clutches for efficiency loss
Less parts for increased reliability
No lag time for clutch engagement
No generation of heat from clutch or gears
No lubrication of cltuch or gears necessary


Because you have a notion that the turbo is spinning at 120k rpm and that high speed electrical machines are slow it is restricting your thoughts.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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“A sprag type of one way and freewheel clutch that can be locked when need be like developed by Honda. when drive changes side”. Rotation does not change, only drive from one side to the other changes and when in locked position drive is effective from both ends.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:45 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:17 pm
The turbocharger (Turbine) safe maximum RPM depends on the turbine diameter (tip blades speed). If the rotational speed (RPM) of the MGU-H being used is the maximum permitted (125000rpm) and the maximum rotational speed (RPM) of the turbocharger being used is less, the MGU-H have to be geared at the appropriate ratio. Example: MGU-K max rpm 50000 to crankshaft max rpm 15000 (and also may be clutched). This fixed speed ratio is achieved through the use of a tiny planetary gearbox, in the case of the split-turbo set-up with the MGU-H sitting in between the turbine and compressor, the gearbox would be at one end of MGU-H hollow drive/input shaft which the turbine/compressor shaft is passing through. And a sprag-type of one-way clutch will be the simplest and least complicated type of clutch to use.
Sy why not simply used the same shaft?
And take that same shaft the armature of the electrical (as Garrett does)

Benefits..
Fixed ratio of 1:1
No gears for efficiency loss
No need for clutches for efficiency loss
Less parts for increased reliability
No lag time for clutch engagement
No generation of heat from clutch or gears
No lubrication of cltuch or gears necessary


Because you have a notion that the turbo is spinning at 120k rpm and that high speed electrical machines are slow it is restricting your thoughts.
Now you are saying “why not simply use the same shaft? And take that same shaft the armature of the electrical (as Garret does).”. What you are saying implicates that the rotating element (armature of MGU-H) is a one-piece-shaft with the turbine and compressor wheels fixed at each end. And rotating as a direct-drive (ratio 1:1). No gearbox ratio up or down and no clutch. On the other hand according to your calculations (06 March) the bigger more efficient turbos being used, which are supposed to push more air at lower RPM, are estimated spinning at around a maximum of 85000rpm at full boost. Contrast that with what Bandid 1216 said: “One more thing, high RPM is the key to design high power to weight ratio electrical motor/generator. Otherwise the MGU-H would be big and heavy. So one wants the turbo as low RPM as possible, but the MGU-H as high RPM as possible".

PhillipM
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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But there's already a weight limit on the MGU-H anyway, so chasing weight savings there may be pointless. Especially with the PU CoG restrictions

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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4 KG . MGU-H cannot be less.

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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The minimum weight (4kg) imposed on the MGU-H came into force in 2017. But otherwise the maximum permitted RPM and the method of connection to the turbo did not change since the start of the formulas in 2014. To me following technical regulations changes/amendments year on year. It means that by 2016 the MGU-H in use was already down to that minimum weight.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:42 am

The turbocharger (Turbine) safe maximum RPM depends on the turbine diameter (tip blades speed). If the rotational speed (RPM) of the MGU-H being used is the maximum permitted (125000rpm) and the maximum rotational speed (RPM) of the turbocharger being used is less, the MGU-H have to be geared at the appropriate ratio. Example: MGU-K max rpm 50000 to crankshaft max rpm 15000 (and also may be clutched). This fixed speed ratio is achieved through the use of a tiny planetary gearbox, in the case of the split-turbo set-up with the MGU-H sitting in between the turbine and compressor, the gearbox would be at one end of MGU-H hollow drive/input shaft which the turbine/compressor shaft is passing through. And a sprag-type of one-way clutch will be the simplest and least complicated type of clutch to use.


Now you are saying “why not simply use the same shaft? And take that same shaft the armature of the electrical (as Garret does).”. What you are saying implicates that the rotating element (armature of MGU-H) is a one-piece-shaft with the turbine and compressor wheels fixed at each end. And rotating as a direct-drive (ratio 1:1). No gearbox ratio up or down and no clutch. On the other hand according to your calculations (06 March) the bigger more efficient turbos being used, which are supposed to push more air at lower RPM, are estimated spinning at around a maximum of 85000rpm at full boost. Contrast that with what Bandid 1216 said: “One more thing, high RPM is the key to design high power to weight ratio electrical motor/generator. Otherwise the MGU-H would be big and heavy. So one wants the turbo as low RPM as possible, but the MGU-H as high RPM as possible".

I am sorry you didn't see the photos and videos I painstakingly posted. The video on the page was technician testing the electrical properties of the armature on the turbine shaft. I can't convince you, I was just showing you an actual real life MGUH made by probably the biggest Turbo- manufacturer in the world.

Here is more for those interested, No clutch in sight...

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... velopments

Image
In one such application, the electrical machine is placed on
the same shaft as the turbine and the compressor wheels in
a turbocharger (machine M1 in Fig. 1). The function of the
machine is twofold. On starting and gear shift, when there is
lack of energy in the exhaust gas stream, the machine is used as
a motor to speed up the compressor to the required speed, thus
reducing turbo lag and improving driveability. At high engine
loads, when there is excess energy in the exhaust, instead of
opening a waste-gate valve to prevent shaft overspeeding, the
electrical machine is used as a generator. The typical integra-
tion of the electrical machine within a turbocharger is shown
in Fig. 2
Image
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Bandit1216
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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I think it's quite impossible to get it under 4 kg either way, when it's more than 50 kW. Unless you get it to 1 Mrpm or use superconducting, that is.

(not done the math)

gruntguru
gruntguru
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:42 am
Now you are saying “why not simply use the same shaft? And take that same shaft the armature of the electrical (as Garret does).”. What you are saying implicates that the rotating element (armature of MGU-H) is a one-piece-shaft with the turbine and compressor wheels fixed at each end. And rotating as a direct-drive (ratio 1:1). No gearbox ratio up or down and no clutch. On the other hand according to your calculations (06 March) the bigger more efficient turbos being used, which are supposed to push more air at lower RPM, are estimated spinning at around a maximum of 85000rpm at full boost. Contrast that with what Bandid 1216 said: “One more thing, high RPM is the key to design high power to weight ratio electrical motor/generator. Otherwise the MGU-H would be big and heavy. So one wants the turbo as low RPM as possible, but the MGU-H as high RPM as possible".
There is a sweet zone between 85k and 125k where the two can meet without the extra complication of a gearbox or clutch. A small compromise in MGUH or compressor rpm is very easy and would present a far smaller weight penalty than a gearbox or clutch. . . and then there is the reliability risk.
je suis charlie

GhostF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 2:14 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:42 am

The turbocharger (Turbine) safe maximum RPM depends on the turbine diameter (tip blades speed). If the rotational speed (RPM) of the MGU-H being used is the maximum permitted (125000rpm) and the maximum rotational speed (RPM) of the turbocharger being used is less, the MGU-H have to be geared at the appropriate ratio. Example: MGU-K max rpm 50000 to crankshaft max rpm 15000 (and also may be clutched). This fixed speed ratio is achieved through the use of a tiny planetary gearbox, in the case of the split-turbo set-up with the MGU-H sitting in between the turbine and compressor, the gearbox would be at one end of MGU-H hollow drive/input shaft which the turbine/compressor shaft is passing through. And a sprag-type of one-way clutch will be the simplest and least complicated type of clutch to use.


Now you are saying “why not simply use the same shaft? And take that same shaft the armature of the electrical (as Garret does).”. What you are saying implicates that the rotating element (armature of MGU-H) is a one-piece-shaft with the turbine and compressor wheels fixed at each end. And rotating as a direct-drive (ratio 1:1). No gearbox ratio up or down and no clutch. On the other hand according to your calculations (06 March) the bigger more efficient turbos being used, which are supposed to push more air at lower RPM, are estimated spinning at around a maximum of 85000rpm at full boost. Contrast that with what Bandid 1216 said: “One more thing, high RPM is the key to design high power to weight ratio electrical motor/generator. Otherwise the MGU-H would be big and heavy. So one wants the turbo as low RPM as possible, but the MGU-H as high RPM as possible".

I am sorry you didn't see the photos and videos I painstakingly posted. The video on the page was technician testing the electrical properties of the armature on the turbine shaft. I can't convince you, I was just showing you an actual real life MGUH made by probably the biggest Turbo- manufacturer in the world.

Here is more for those interested, No clutch in sight...

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... velopments

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Da ... isting.png
In one such application, the electrical machine is placed on
the same shaft as the turbine and the compressor wheels in
a turbocharger (machine M1 in Fig. 1). The function of the
machine is twofold. On starting and gear shift, when there is
lack of energy in the exhaust gas stream, the machine is used as
a motor to speed up the compressor to the required speed, thus
reducing turbo lag and improving driveability. At high engine
loads, when there is excess energy in the exhaust, instead of
opening a waste-gate valve to prevent shaft overspeeding, the
electrical machine is used as a generator. The typical integra-
tion of the electrical machine within a turbocharger is shown
in Fig. 2
https://media.springernature.com/lw685/ ... 1_HTML.jpg
I'm still amazed that because this exists for a road car application, you think this is the limit for the F1 power units and use said turbo like it's a confirmation it's impossible/otherwise pointless..

You are completely sidestepping the fact the F1 power units have regulations enforced that require lateral thinking design and technology wise to get to a certain goal.

I actually said I agree with you there would be zero application/woould have no benefit for a clutched MGU-H in a road car application, mainly because my suggestion of a clutch was to sidestep a regulation in Formula 1 (obviously this is NOT OF A CONCERN for road car use).

What confuses me further is you keep relating it to electric cars and or repeating how this Garrett design works. Mate, I and most likely a few others know what you keep linking and understand fully what Garrett have come up with, the question on my mind is why are you doing it? Because it's overall idea is similar? Because it has an electric motor? Because THIS has no clutch it cannot be possible elsewhere? Because it has the word turbo in it?
Because you're the one "painstakingly posting" information/descriptions of which nobody is asking lol. At this point you may as well post articles on the debate as to whether Elephants feel empathy towards each other...

If banging your head against the wall is hurting, just a thought, maybe stop, realise there was no need to do that in the first place..

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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gruntguru wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:46 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 6:42 am
Now you are saying “why not simply use the same shaft? And take that same shaft the armature of the electrical (as Garret does).”. What you are saying implicates that the rotating element (armature of MGU-H) is a one-piece-shaft with the turbine and compressor wheels fixed at each end. And rotating as a direct-drive (ratio 1:1). No gearbox ratio up or down and no clutch. On the other hand according to your calculations (06 March) the bigger more efficient turbos being used, which are supposed to push more air at lower RPM, are estimated spinning at around a maximum of 85000rpm at full boost. Contrast that with what Bandid 1216 said: “One more thing, high RPM is the key to design high power to weight ratio electrical motor/generator. Otherwise the MGU-H would be big and heavy. So one wants the turbo as low RPM as possible, but the MGU-H as high RPM as possible".
There is a sweet zone between 85k and 125k where the two can meet without the extra complication of a gearbox or clutch. A small compromise in MGUH or compressor rpm is very easy and would present a far smaller weight penalty than a gearbox or clutch. . . and then there is the reliability risk.
“There is a sweet zone between 85k and 125k RPM were the two can meet” Yes sure, a sweet zone were in the formula one turbo/MGU-H set-up (but not the Garret ‘set-up’, which contrary to your push have nothing to do with formula one) there is a fixed ratio gearbox at the output side of the MGU-H, with the coupled end to the turbine/compressor shaft that can be DE-CLUTCHED.

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

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Huh? I didn't know you are a master of spin too. :shock:

Ghost, you have failed to bring supporting evidence or solid engineering theory to back-up your claims even after a barrage of evidence countering your arguments. You have floundered in posts dragging out the conversations to no avail. Therfore I have seen enough to surmise that Honda's MGUH is 99% likely to be clutchless until anyone else can convince me otherwise.

I wish you could see your reflection, Ghost.
.. OG.. OG.. OG.. OG..
Online Stress Therapy. #77 is mediocre. W12 is the fastest car. Repeat x 1,000