Mercedes W11

[Just_a_fan]

Based on where the push rod is attached to the hub, the front of the Mercedes lowers when turning into corners. Adjusting the toe with the steering wheel moving in and out should also slightly change the ride height.

The same as everyone else then. Indeed, RBR have redesigned their rack location to have an effect on the front end other than just steering the wheels. If they protest Mercedes's system, expect theirs to be also protested. Which is going to be easier to change for the second race...?

[zibby43]

I still can't believe how much fuss people make over a gimmick.

Tell that to Red Bull. Sure doesn't make sense to pay your lawyers to analyze a gimmick. Doesn't make much sense to threaten to protest over a gimmick, either.

You mean the brake ducts? Protesting something is relatively low cost. You're going to pay your lawyers regardless, might as well put them to work.

It’s not low cost in terms of political capital in the paddock and credibility with the stewards. Which is why a protest is so rare, despite the low financial cost.

[Just_a_fan]

To avoid a possible post race penalty, could Merc ask one of its customer teams file a protest with the expected arguments from RBR and get it clarified before Quali?

I'm not sure to what extent the car has to be "legal" during practice, or if you can protest on safety grounds.

Practice is part of the "event" and a car must be legal throughout an "event".

[Just_a_fan]

I still can't believe how much fuss people make over a gimmick.

And yet "your" team are talking about protesting it. Gimmick?

[mmred]

The drivers head and the wheels aren't aero devices thus don't matter if they are moving.

And thus the DAS system is not aero related.

Also worth noting that Merc argue the steering wheel is being used to adjust the wheels, when it actual fact it's the steering column that looks to be moving and be the key player in the system.

The steering wheel is definitely moving. That's how it was first found out, after all. The wheel is moved fore and aft.

You can activate an aero device in any way, the way of activation, hand head feet, doesnt change its purpouse. It s the effect that counts. The device Is not aero Just if the aero effect Is negligible according to fia standards, but that s a Grey area. Straight wheels surely offer less drag than "toed"ones. How much. Is It negligible? It s a fia decision.

[Just_a_fan]

half-a-millimetre can make a significant difference to both the overall amount of downforce and the balance of the car.

I don't believe that 0.5mm makes any difference at all. It's so far within the wear and other variability of other components that it's daft to suggest the car/driver would be aware of it. The road surface will vary by more than that several times a metre.

[Just_a_fan]

I work in the auto field, non racing, and i assure you i can get fired tomorrow for 0.1mm . A tollerabile difference would be 0.001 MayBe 0.01, if the chief Is Happy 0.05

Ride height? Don't believe you, sorry.

[mmred]

I work in the auto field, non racing, and i assure you i can get fired tomorrow for 0.1mm . A tollerabile difference would be 0.001 MayBe 0.01, if the chief Is Happy 0.05

Ride height? Don't believe you, sorry.

If you d read me you d know that i am talking about general components of a non racing car

Surely ride height of a racing car has same or less tollerance than a door for example. They also used to measure It with laser meters believe me they go one digit. at least.

[Just_a_fan]

The drivers head and the wheels aren't aero devices thus don't matter if they are moving.

And thus the DAS system is not aero related.

Also worth noting that Merc argue the steering wheel is being used to adjust the wheels, when it actual fact it's the steering column that looks to be moving and be the key player in the system.

The steering wheel is definitely moving. That's how it was first found out, after all. The wheel is moved fore and aft.

You can activate an aero device in any way, the way of activation, hand head feet, doesnt change its purpouse. It s the effect that counts. The device Is not aero Just if the aero effect Is negligible according to fia standards, but that s a Grey area. Straight wheels surely offer less drag than "toed"ones. How much. Is It negligible? It s a fia decision.

That's known as "clutching at straws". If the reason for doing it is tyre performance, and drag is reduced by a tiny amount, then the aero benefit is negligible compared to the the principle benefit.

If one wants to go down the "any aero benefit is bad" route, the entire suspension system is intended to keep the aero map of the car car happy as one of its design goals. Is suspension to be banned therefore?

[Just_a_fan]

I work in the auto field, non racing, and i assure you i can get fired tomorrow for 0.1mm . A tollerabile difference would be 0.001 MayBe 0.01, if the chief Is Happy 0.05

Ride height? Don't believe you, sorry.

If you d read me you d know that i am talking about general components of a non racing car

Surely ride height of a racing car has same or less tollerance than a door for example. They also used to measure It with laser meters believe me they go two digits. at least.

So door gaps are measured to 0.01mm? Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.

[mmred]

Ride height? Don't believe you, sorry.

If you d read me you d know that i am talking about general components of a non racing car

Surely ride height of a racing car has same or less tollerance than a door for example. They also used to measure It with laser meters believe me they go two digits. at least.

So door gaps are measured to 0.01mm? Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.

If you d read me you d know they are designed at 0.05 or less, but Just for saying i don't t design doors

[mmred]

And thus the DAS system is not aero related.


The steering wheel is definitely moving. That's how it was first found out, after all. The wheel is moved fore and aft.

You can activate an aero device in any way, the way of activation, hand head feet, doesnt change its purpouse. It s the effect that counts. The device Is not aero Just if the aero effect Is negligible according to fia standards, but that s a Grey area. Straight wheels surely offer less drag than "toed"ones. How much. Is It negligible? It s a fia decision.

That's known as "clutching at straws". If the reason for doing it is tyre performance, and drag is reduced by a tiny amount, then the aero benefit is negligible compared to the the principle benefit.

If one wants to go down the "any aero benefit is bad" route, the entire suspension system is intended to keep the aero map of the car car happy as one of its design goals. Is suspension to be banned therefore?

You cant compare an aero Benefict with a mechanical One. That s Just a bad argument. You can consider negligible an aero effect if It s less than a standard minimum CD value. It requires a tunnel or CFD comparison between Two aero simulations. With activation and without. Not oranges with apples

[Just_a_fan]

You can activate an aero device in any way, the way of activation, hand head feet, doesnt change its purpouse. It s the effect that counts. The device Is not aero Just if the aero effect Is negligible according to fia standards, but that s a Grey area. Straight wheels surely offer less drag than "toed"ones. How much. Is It negligible? It s a fia decision.

That's known as "clutching at straws". If the reason for doing it is tyre performance, and drag is reduced by a tiny amount, then the aero benefit is negligible compared to the the principle benefit.

If one wants to go down the "any aero benefit is bad" route, the entire suspension system is intended to keep the aero map of the car car happy as one of its design goals. Is suspension to be banned therefore?

You cant compare an aero Benefict with a mechanical One. That s Just a bad argument. You can consider negligible an aero effect if It s less than a standard minimum CD value. It requires a tunnel or CFD comparison between Two aero simulations. With activation and without. Not oranges with apples

If you need specialist tools to show a possible benefit, then it's not non-negligible. If the aero benefit between DAS-1 and DAS-0 is a few thousandths of a second compared to the tyre benefit of several additional laps then one can safely say "the aero isn't a factor".

[Just_a_fan]

If you d read me you d know that i am talking about general components of a non racing car

Surely ride height of a racing car has same or less tollerance than a door for example. They also used to measure It with laser meters believe me they go two digits. at least.

So door gaps are measured to 0.01mm? Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.

If you d read me you d know they are designed at 0.05 or less, but Just for saying i don't t design doors

What on a road car, outside of the engine/gearbox/differential is designed at that sort of tolerance? 0.05mm is less than human hair thickness.

[godlameroso]

And thus the DAS system is not aero related.


The steering wheel is definitely moving. That's how it was first found out, after all. The wheel is moved fore and aft.

You can activate an aero device in any way, the way of activation, hand head feet, doesnt change its purpouse. It s the effect that counts. The device Is not aero Just if the aero effect Is negligible according to fia standards, but that s a Grey area. Straight wheels surely offer less drag than "toed"ones. How much. Is It negligible? It s a fia decision.

That's known as "clutching at straws". If the reason for doing it is tyre performance, and drag is reduced by a tiny amount, then the aero benefit is negligible compared to the the principle benefit.

If one wants to go down the "any aero benefit is bad" route, the entire suspension system is intended to keep the aero map of the car car happy as one of its design goals. Is suspension to be banned therefore?

Difference being that a driver isn't changing the position of the steering rack itself while the suspension does its thing. Why wouldn't they protest? RB wants to win fair and square, Mercedes needs gimmicks to stay ahead. Why wouldn't RB try to level the playing field if they can? Look 3 pages talking about a gimmick, and fan boys defending it, this has gone way too far off topic.

I frankly don't care about DAS, its use is very limited, and what if it makes the car weaker with wheel to wheel racing. If such vulnerability is discovered then you'll see more aggressive moves against Mercedes cars.