DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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izzy
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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gandharva wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:30 am
Wir erfahren aus dem Mercedes-Umfeld, dass man das "DAS"-System wegen des drohenden Red Bull-Protests vermutlich doch nicht einsetzen wird. Obwohl ein Einsatz an Freitag unverfänglich wäre und man damit ohne Angst auf Disqualifikation endlich Klarheit hätte. Es sind aber zu viele Kontroversen im Umlauf, dass man den vielen Krisenherden nicht noch einen weiteren hinzufügen will.
We learn from the Mercedes environment that the "DAS" system will probably not be used after all because of the threatening Red Bull protest. Although a deployment on Friday would be harmless and one would finally have clarity without fear of disqualification. However, there are too many controversies in circulation that one does not want to add another to the many trouble spots.
Source: AMUS live ticker
Oh well that's disappointing :(

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SiLo
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Why are people talking about aero benefits? The only argument here is whether moving the wheels without changing the direction of the car is illegal.

Currently the rules don't explicitly mention this being the case, but they do say that if you move the wheels outside of their suspension travel and range, you have to be moving the steering wheel. That's it.

Any talk of it being an aero device is likely to be silly, because of the way the rules are written.
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dans79
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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SiLo wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:35 am
Why are people talking about aero benefits? The only argument here is whether moving the wheels without changing the direction of the car is illegal.
It seems some people are desperate to come up with a reason, any reason for it to be illegal. Fear is a powerful thing apparently.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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izzy wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:33 am
gandharva wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:30 am
Wir erfahren aus dem Mercedes-Umfeld, dass man das "DAS"-System wegen des drohenden Red Bull-Protests vermutlich doch nicht einsetzen wird. Obwohl ein Einsatz an Freitag unverfänglich wäre und man damit ohne Angst auf Disqualifikation endlich Klarheit hätte. Es sind aber zu viele Kontroversen im Umlauf, dass man den vielen Krisenherden nicht noch einen weiteren hinzufügen will.
We learn from the Mercedes environment that the "DAS" system will probably not be used after all because of the threatening Red Bull protest. Although a deployment on Friday would be harmless and one would finally have clarity without fear of disqualification. However, there are too many controversies in circulation that one does not want to add another to the many trouble spots.
Source: AMUS live ticker
Oh well that's disappointing :(
But suggests that it's not a big issue for them at this particular circuit. I wonder if it was more aimed at the likes of China where there is a loooong straight.
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izzy
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:23 pm
But suggests that it's not a big issue for them at this particular circuit. I wonder if it was more aimed at the likes of China where there is a loooong straight.
yes and it could be like when Ferrari were going to protest their wheels and they were just "no problem we gotcha anyway, punks" :lol:

still i hope they do run it, it has that naughty quality to it

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subcritical71
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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SiLo wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:35 am
Why are people talking about aero benefits? The only argument here is whether moving the wheels without changing the direction of the car is illegal.
And couldn't this be overcome by having the system steer slightly during the transition by having the toe change asymmetrically?

apexcontrol
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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dans79 wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 2:14 pm
SiLo wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:35 am
Why are people talking about aero benefits? The only argument here is whether moving the wheels without changing the direction of the car is illegal.
It seems some people are desperate to come up with a reason, any reason for it to be illegal. Fear is a powerful thing apparently.
do you really think what ppl think here make a difference ?, and of course every team will eliminate possible advantage over other teams, when you can deem it illegal.

apexcontrol
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Wheel aerodynamics

At first glance, wheels may appear to be a fairly simple component, but in Formula One they are in fact highly optimised aerodynamic devices. The airflow through a wheel can have a considerable impact on the overall aerodynamic performance of a car, and is the subject of intense development by teams. Although the FIA has tried to regulate out such developments, teams are constantly finding ways to circumvent the rules to gain improved performance. So what systems have been devised to eke performance from these seemingly humble components?

The wheel cannot be viewed in isolation, and the various designs developed by teams to condition the airflow through the wheel are dependent on other parts, such as the brake cooling ducts, to be effective. The flow coming off a car’s bodywork, notably from the front wing, also plays a key role.

Over the years, various teams have gone to great lengths to optimise this area of a car’s aerodynamics; the biggest developments took place over the 2006 and 2007 seasons. Instead of simply sculpting the wheel, teams – notably Ferrari – began to use disc-shaped devices that covered the outside of the wheel but that did not rotate.

Making these devices work effectively was no easy task, however, as Pascal Vasselon, of the then Toyota F1 team explained in 2007. “The effect of the front wheel blanking is not something you can capture very simply,” he said. “We now have some experience with it, and clearly it can have a totally different effect according to the rest of the flow structure over the rest of the car. It’s a powerful item, and you can use it in different ways. It’s not only a drag reduction item; it really can change a lot of things in terms of front-wheel wake – you are of course playing with the font wheel wake. It requires careful tuning according to the rest of the car.”

Over the next four years these devices developed into some extreme designs, which in some cases even ended up being extended around the rear of the tyre. Despite the sweeping regulation changes introduced in 2009 to ‘clean up’ the aerodynamics of the cars – intended to reduce the impact of a car’s wake on the cars behind – wheel covers managed to survive. Come 2010, however, the FIA decided they had to go, and revised the regulations to eliminate them.

Ferrari managed to circumvent the new regulations by incorporating an aerodynamic device into the wheel structure itself. This was a cunning move, as rims must be homologated for the whole season, and thus none of its rivals was able to copy the design. Suffice to say, the FIA felt these went against the spirit of the regulations, and for 2011 introduced regulations strictly governing the form of the wheels. This hasn’t stopped teams pushing their development though, and many have devised new means to improve the flow conditions around the wheels.

2012 saw Williams develop a ‘scoopless’ brake duct for the FW34, in an effort to help control the airflow in the area between the wheel and the chassis, while still helping to condition the flow around the outside of the wheel. The design achieves this by using a hollow axle that terminates before the wheel nut and is thus within the regulations. The air is channelled from the brake duct through the axle and out over the wheel rim, the duct being fed by a small gap between the top of the duct and the inside of the wheel.

2013 has seen several other teams adopt similar solutions, as well as further developments to channel air out through the front axle. Red Bull tried a similar solution with the RB8 in 2012, but the design vented air outboard of the wheel nut and was thus deemed illegal.

The fact that teams will dedicate so much ingenuity and effort to such relatively small aspects of a car’s design highlights the level of design optimisation the current generation of cars achieves.

apexcontrol
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:30 am
apexcontrol wrote:
Wed Mar 11, 2020 7:37 pm
it isnt legal. at 300km the aero change is huge.

https://drivetribe.com/p/aerodynamics-o ... rnTlzA-XCQ
Interesting article. Says nothing about the legality of the DAS system.
ofcourse it does not, but you can understand why its illegal, toe change can act as a massive F duct.
the wheel of a f1 car are not simple wheel, you can use them to change the whole airflow over the car.


changing the too, could mean you make difuser and the rear wing stall. and so creating much less lag....
those wheels are huge and can deliver a huge amount of redirected aero.

apexcontrol
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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Approximately 25 % of a passenger vehicle’s aerodynamic drag comes directly or indirectly from its wheels, indicating that the rim geometry is highly relevant for increasing the vehicle’s overall energy efficiency. An extensive experimental study is presented where a parametric model of the rim design was developed, and statistical methods were employed to isolate the aerodynamic effects of certain geometric rim parameters. In addition to wind tunnel force measurements, this study employed the flowfield measurement techniques of wake surveys, wheelhouse pressure measurements, and base pressure measurements to investigate and explain the most important parameters’ effects on the flowfield. In addition, a numerical model of the vehicle with various rim geometries was developed and used to further elucidate the effects of certain geometric parameters on the flow field. The results showed that the most important parameter was the coverage area, and it was found to have a linear effect on the aerodynamic drag. Interestingly, parameters associated with the outer radial region of wheel (rim cover) were also found to be significant, along with the wheel depth of center (flatness). The flowfield measurements showed, again, that the coverage area had the most significant effect, with it directly affecting how much flow passes through the front rim and subsequently affecting features like the near-ground jetting vortex and vortices out of the wheelhouse. In addition, the coverage area also affected the pressure recovery at the base of the vehicle and the wheelhouse pressure. The effects of other parameters are also detailed in the paper. The effects of different coverage area at the front and rear rims on the drag coefficient were investigated, where having a high coverage at the rear reduced drag the most.


so you see 2 degrees of toe adjustment can be a huge advantage, forget tiredeg.
the aero you change is unreal.

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djos
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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apexcontrol wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:13 pm
Wheel aerodynamics

At first glance, wheels may appear to be a fairly simple component, but in Formula One they are in fact highly optimised aerodynamic devices. The airflow through a wheel can have a considerable impact on the overall aerodynamic performance of a car, and is the subject of intense development by teams. Although the FIA has tried to regulate out such developments, teams are constantly finding ways to circumvent the rules to gain improved performance. So what systems have been devised to eke performance from these seemingly humble components?

The wheel cannot be viewed in isolation, and the various designs developed by teams to condition the airflow through the wheel are dependent on other parts, such as the brake cooling ducts, to be effective. The flow coming off a car’s bodywork, notably from the front wing, also plays a key role.

<SNIP>
This is it exactly, great summary!
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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izzy
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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apexcontrol wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:17 pm
ofcourse it does not, but you can understand why its illegal, toe change can act as a massive F duct.
the wheel of a f1 car are not simple wheel, you can use them to change the whole airflow over the car.

changing the too, could mean you make difuser and the rear wing stall. and so creating much less lag....
those wheels are huge and can deliver a huge amount of redirected aero.
wheels are not included in the moveable aero regs at all, same as brake ducts which boing up and down and side to side with them

apexcontrol
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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izzy wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:47 pm
apexcontrol wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:17 pm
ofcourse it does not, but you can understand why its illegal, toe change can act as a massive F duct.
the wheel of a f1 car are not simple wheel, you can use them to change the whole airflow over the car.

changing the too, could mean you make difuser and the rear wing stall. and so creating much less lag....
those wheels are huge and can deliver a huge amount of redirected aero.
wheels are not included in the moveable aero regs at all, same as brake ducts which boing up and down and side to side with them
well nobody uses the wheel as wings/deflectors/fanes, up on till now.
and there are some rules you not allowed to have moveable aero parts.

changing toe sure it does alot of things. but it will not steer the car in any direction. so that is a fact.
agreed ?

then we come to other things it might do and how that is done.
we can agree that the wheel are huge compared to the rest for the front section of the car.
huge things crates huge wakes, and if you can control a huge wake independently of what the car does on track.
then you can use that for controlling allot of aero.

merc might say well that was not our intention, but thats not the point. the point is what does it do.
and if 'steering' (qoute from merc) does not change direction. why call it multi dimensional steering.

its a good find for sure. but it will not stick. if you can optimized it, and merc surly can.
the aerodynamic change and behaviour of the car is way to extreme.
you can kill diffuser and the rear wing to a complete stall, the lost clean air on the rear wing cause the rearwing to lift up.
and the frontwing will lower. and the effect go on a snowball effect.

so in fact the whole car changes dramaticly
if merc optimize it then they have max too for cornering. but maybe 50% less drag on the straight.

if optimized merc will win all races by a mile

dans79
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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izzy wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:47 pm
apexcontrol wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:17 pm
ofcourse it does not, but you can understand why its illegal, toe change can act as a massive F duct.
the wheel of a f1 car are not simple wheel, you can use them to change the whole airflow over the car.

changing the too, could mean you make difuser and the rear wing stall. and so creating much less lag....
those wheels are huge and can deliver a huge amount of redirected aero.
wheels are not included in the moveable aero regs at all, same as brake ducts which boing up and down and side to side with them
I'm sure if some people had their way they would completely rewrite the regs.
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strad
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Re: DAS Dual Axis Steering...Legality??

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At first glance, wheels may appear to be a fairly simple component, but in Formula One they are in fact highly optimised aerodynamic devices
…..
.
Damn y'all beat me to it.
Yes the tires and the wheels play a very large role in the aerodynamics. Especially in terms of drag.
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