Mercedes W11

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Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes W11

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saviour stivala wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:18 pm


The regs does not say "may only use six studs" they say ALL studs MUST be used. 5.3.8: "power unit mounting may only comprise six M12 studs for connection to survival cell and six M12 studs for connection to transmission. ALL studs MUST be used and may be fitted on the survival cell, power unit or transmission".
It's in the very section you have quoted! I've highlighted it for you above.

There is a difference between "may" and "must", They MAY use six studs. ALL studs [that are provided] must be used.

If they had intended for every mounting to have exactly six studs, they would have said "power unit mounting must comprise six studs and all six must be used".
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

saviour stivala
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Re: Mercedes W11

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"May only comprise 6 M12 studs" (not 7 nor 8 neither 5 nor 4. and they MUST all be used).
Last edited by saviour stivala on Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bill shoe
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Re: Mercedes W11

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Current F1 innovation comprises different interpretations of the minutia of the wording of the rules (ex: 4 vs. 6 studs). This is trivial from a technical point of view and does nothing to advance automotive engineering. New (2022?) rules clamp down on true innovation even further. Should teams replace Engineers with English language professors?

Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes W11

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saviour stivala wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:42 pm
"May only comprise 6 M12 studs" (not 7 nor 8 neither 5 nor 4. and they MUST all be used).
Sorry, that's not what it says.

If the requirement was to have exactly six studs and then use them all, they would have stated that six studs must be provided and used.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Blackout
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Re: Mercedes W11

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saviour stivala wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:14 pm
Blackout wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:53 am
Allegedly Ferrari and Red Bull have found out that Mercedes connects engine and transmission with only four studs, but still manages to make this connection torsionally stiff. Ferrari and Red Bull Honda need six studs. The consequence: The transmission is therefore built a bit wider. This could be an aerodynamic disadvantage. Both teams therefore want to build new transmissions for 2021.
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ona-krise/
That part of the article by automotorsport (engine/transmission connection) is incorrect and misleading. First. Mercedes is not doing that at present (using 4 studs instead of 6)


Wrong. They do, like Ferrari in 2016 as the pictures I posted above show, again.

The engine to bulkhead and transmission to engine mountings are standardised mountings, bolt/stud sizes and bolt/stud pattern dimensions. Which means any of the four present engines and any of the gearboxes in use can be mounted not only together but also to any of the cars in use (engine to bulkhead).
That's only theoretical, but in real life it's impossible to mount a complete engine to a bulkhead that hasnt been designed for that engine and it's impossible for mount a Merc/'Honda' gbox on a Ferrari/Renault engine without making several changes.

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subcritical71
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Re: Mercedes W11

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:57 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:42 pm
"May only comprise 6 M12 studs" (not 7 nor 8 neither 5 nor 4. and they MUST all be used).
Sorry, that's not what it says.

If the requirement was to have exactly six studs and then use them all, they would have stated that six studs must be provided and used.
Where are studs 5 & 6 in this picture (provided by Blackout);
Image

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subcritical71
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Re: Mercedes W11

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Here's their positioning if there are 6 (location mandated by rules);
Image

In the Ferrari picture above there is open space where the middle 2 mounting locations would be.

saviour stivala
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Re: Mercedes W11

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subcritical71 wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:44 am
Here's their positioning if there are 6 (location mandated by rules);
https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... 615h-2.jpg

In the Ferrari picture above there is open space where the middle 2 mounting locations would be.
That picture shows exactly six locations. At the rear (gearbox to engine mounting) with four studs mounted on the engine lower side plus two holes on the engine upper side to receive the two studs mounted on the gearbox. gearbox to engine: four studs mounted/treaded on the lower part of the engine and two stud holes on the top part of engine to receive the two studs mounted/treaded on the gearbox. The picture also shows the left side three front of the engine to bulkhead studs mounting holes. two at top of engine and one at lower part of engine. What I wrote in ( ) "not seven nor eight neither five nor four" was not meant as to what is actually written in the rules but as to what the proper interpretations out to be.

saviour stivala
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Re: Mercedes W11

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The official wording of the technical regulations are as follows.
Formula one 2020 FIA technical regulations (5.3.8) “Power unit mounting may only comprise six M12 studs for connection to survival cell and six M12 studs for connection to the transmission. All studs ‘MUST’ be used and may be fitted on the survival cell, power unit or transmission”.
Formula one 2022 FIA technical regulations (5.4.8) “Power unit mounting may only comprise six M12 studs for connection to the survival cell and ‘EITHER’ four or six M12 studs for connection to the transmission”.
In both the 2020 and 2022 regulations the six mounting studs pattern/dimensions (studs centre to centre distances and tolerances) for both front (engine to survival cell mounting) and rear (engine to transmission mounting) remain the same and with no changes. Which means that for 2022 using four instead of six transmission to engine mounting studs will only mean using two less studs. And that both front and rear mountings are still standardised as before.
A note: the front engine to survival cell mountings top four stud holes are on the valve covers top triangular reinforced structure while the bottom two are on the lower part of the lower crankcase. The rear engine to transmission mountings top two holes are on the valve covers top triangular reinforced structure while the bottom four are two on the lower part of the upper crankcase and two on the lower part of the lower crankcase.

saviour stivala
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Re: Mercedes W11

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subcritical71 wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:27 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:57 pm
saviour stivala wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:42 pm
"May only comprise 6 M12 studs" (not 7 nor 8 neither 5 nor 4. and they MUST all be used).
Sorry, that's not what it says.

If the requirement was to have exactly six studs and then use them all, they would have stated that six studs must be provided and used.
Where are studs 5 & 6 in this picture (provided by Blackout);
https://www.racecar-engineering.com/wp- ... pfer14.jpg
You did not state in which way or manner studs or stud-holes are counted 1-to-6. But anyhow that picture shows the two top and the two lower studs threaded into the transmission bell-housing, the top two goes into stud holes (one each cylinder bank) of the triangular support structure on top of each valve cover. While two stud holes are shown on top (one each side) of the input drive stub (just above what looks like a blue bellows). These two holes receive the two studs threaded into the upper crankcase of the engine. The two lower studs (threaded into the transmission bell housing goes into holes in the lowest part of the lower crankcase of the engine.

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Blackout
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Re: Mercedes W11

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Are we still arguing about this?
Here the Merc engine. How can they mount the median studs? the exhausts stand in the way.
Image
saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:15 am
subcritical71 wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:44 am
Here's their positioning if there are 6 (location mandated by rules);
https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... 615h-2.jpg

In the Ferrari picture above there is open space where the middle 2 mounting locations would be.
That picture shows exactly six locations.
For the last time, everybody knows there are 6 studs/mounting points there on the engine.
Image
But what you dont understand is that Ferrari in 2016 and Mercedes in 2019 completely removed the middle mounting points. Why? Because they drilled a much bigger hole than usual in the casing to pass more exhaust pipes.
viewtopic.php?p=897162#p897162

Here the 2017 Ferrari gbox with the 6 mounting points and studs and the 2016 gbox with only 4 studs.
Image
The hole takes away the median mounting points.
The 2015 one had more normal exhaust holes and 6 mounting points
https://sf.viepratique.fr/wp-content/up ... rbox-4.jpg

Where are the 6 studs on the Merc Gbox?
Image
viewtopic.php?p=897095#p897095
saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:45 am
While two stud holes are shown on top (one each side) of the input drive stub (just above what looks like a blue bellows).
No. You must be high on drugs.
And even if they had holes there, they couldnt put studs there and use them as mounting points. The exhaust pipes stand in the way.
Last edited by Blackout on Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:57 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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subcritical71
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Re: Mercedes W11

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saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:45 am
subcritical71 wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:27 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sat Apr 04, 2020 9:57 pm


Sorry, that's not what it says.

If the requirement was to have exactly six studs and then use them all, they would have stated that six studs must be provided and used.
Where are studs 5 & 6 in this picture (provided by Blackout);
https://www.racecar-engineering.com/wp- ... pfer14.jpg
You did not state in which way or manner studs or stud-holes are counted 1-to-6. But anyhow that picture shows the two top and the two lower studs threaded into the transmission bell-housing, the top two goes into stud holes (one each cylinder bank) of the triangular support structure on top of each valve cover. While two stud holes are shown on top (one each side) of the input drive stub (just above what looks like a blue bellows). These two holes receive the two studs threaded into the upper crankcase of the engine. The two lower studs (threaded into the transmission bell housing goes into holes in the lowest part of the lower crankcase of the engine.
No matter you methodology of counting you will only find 4 mounting locations in that picture.

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Blackout
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Re: Mercedes W11

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2018 is similar although the 2018 Merc exhaust manifold was different.
On the left is 2017: the 6 engine mounting points are cleared. The clutch is completely visible.
On the right: 2018 and 2019: the middle engine mounting points are obstructed by the exhaust pipes. You cant see half the clutch.
Image

saviour stivala
saviour stivala
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Re: Mercedes W11

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Blackout wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:39 am
Are we still arguing about this?
Here the Merc engine. How can they mount the median studs? the exhausts stand in the way.
https://sf2.viepratique.fr/wp-content/u ... 50x410.jpg
saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 4:15 am
subcritical71 wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:44 am
Here's their positioning if there are 6 (location mandated by rules);
https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... 615h-2.jpg

In the Ferrari picture above there is open space where the middle 2 mounting locations would be.
That picture shows exactly six locations.
For the last time, everybody knows there are 6 studs/mounting points there.
https://i.imgur.com/HebnWLp.jpg
But what you dont understand is that Ferrari in 2016 and Mercedes in 2019 completely removed the middle mounting points. Why? Because they drilled a much bigger hole than usual in the casing to pass more exhaust pipes.
viewtopic.php?p=897162#p897162

Here the 2017 Ferrari gbox with the 6 mounting points and studs and the 2016 gbox with only 4 studs.
https://i.imgur.com/kDMGH8b.jpg
The hole takes away the median mounting points.
The 2015 one had more normal exhaust holes and 6 mounting points
https://sf.viepratique.fr/wp-content/up ... rbox-4.jpg

Where are the 6 studs on the Merc Gbox?
https://sf.viepratique.fr/wp-content/up ... less_6.jpg
viewtopic.php?p=897095#p897095
saviour stivala wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:45 am
While two stud holes are shown on top (one each side) of the input drive stub (just above what looks like a blue bellows).
No. You must be high on drugs.
And even if they had holes there, they couldnt put studs there and use them as mounting points. The exhaust pipes stand in the way.
The 2016 gearbox have 4 studs threaded into the bellhousing two top and two bottom plus two stud-holes which the two studs threaded into the upper crankcase passes into. Anyhow. transmission to engine mounting can only use four mounting studs in 2022.
Last edited by saviour stivala on Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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subcritical71
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Re: Mercedes W11

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Blackout wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:12 pm
2018 is similar although the 2018 Merc exhaust manifold was different.
On the left is 2017: the 6 engine mounting points are cleared. The clutch is completely visible.
On the right: 2018 and 2019: the middle engine mounting points are obstructed by the exhaust pipes. You cant see half the clutch.
https://i.imgur.com/zmshqnl.jpg
I'm not sure being hidden on its own means it cannot still have the mounting location. I get your point though, it would be near impossible to install the studs with the exhaust pipes installed.

I put this sketch together based on the specified mounting locations;
Image
*the lines are probably not perfect. 1) The line between the lower most and upper most mount is not a straight line through the middle mount. 2) The lower distance (mount to mount) is ~36% of the total distance between the upper most and lower most mount.
The orange circles are where the mounting locations are specified.
I've added the RED lines to ask a question to SS. Are you meaning that the two middle mounting points would exist on the PU at the shown locations but the studs would extend further into the gearbox before their attachment to the gearbox? My thinking here is you don't think this would be a PU flange to Gearbox flange connection.