Driver styles/preferences

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raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:29 pm
Sevach wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:06 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Czacauviyk

Schuey this time, a lot of recycled footage from that 95 video.

Solid point imo on MS being one of the founding fathers of "fast in, fast out".
Hamilton had a similar style at McLaren, the "V" turn, as opposed to Jenson Button who did a smoother "U" curve, and it had an effect on tyre life of course. Sharply pivoting the car at the apex was quick, but put a lot of energy in a short time.
After the Pirellies got every cheesier, everyone had to driver the car a certain way and the differences in styles between drivers really blurred.
I’m not entirely certain that’s true. A V-line would of course have a higher peak load during the “Peak rotation” phase Of the corner but a C-line driver would of course have a lower peak loading...

But between higher apex speed (more downforce on tyres at time of rotation too) and prolonged cornering time, there has to be a ground where the C-line puts more energy through the tyres. More “area under the curve” as it were.
Wass85 wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:16 pm
[quote=raymondu999 post_id=898513 time=<a href="tel:1586898239">1586898239</a> user_id=9349]
IIRC they were only ever 1lap apart on Q3 fuel weights. Could be wrong. To my memory, whoever was faster in Q2 got the extra lap of fuel in Q3?

Also dont forget differing setups. Just because they had the same car wouldnt mean same setups.
From what I recall Alonso was usually faster in Q2? That puts end to the myth that he was not the best of qualifiers.
[/quote]
I remember being surprised when I saw that Alonso Won the qualifying head to head. But I dont remember if it was Q2 or Q3 data I was comparing
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Wass85
Wass85
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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raymondu999 wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:07 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:29 pm
Sevach wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 3:06 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Czacauviyk

Schuey this time, a lot of recycled footage from that 95 video.

Solid point imo on MS being one of the founding fathers of "fast in, fast out".
Hamilton had a similar style at McLaren, the "V" turn, as opposed to Jenson Button who did a smoother "U" curve, and it had an effect on tyre life of course. Sharply pivoting the car at the apex was quick, but put a lot of energy in a short time.
After the Pirellies got every cheesier, everyone had to driver the car a certain way and the differences in styles between drivers really blurred.
I’m not entirely certain that’s true. A V-line would of course have a higher peak load during the “Peak rotation” phase Of the corner but a C-line driver would of course have a lower peak loading...

But between higher apex speed (more downforce on tyres at time of rotation too) and prolonged cornering time, there has to be a ground where the C-line puts more energy through the tyres. More “area under the curve” as it were.
Wass85 wrote:
Tue Apr 14, 2020 10:16 pm
[quote=raymondu999 post_id=898513 time=<a href="tel:1586898239">1586898239</a> user_id=9349]
IIRC they were only ever 1lap apart on Q3 fuel weights. Could be wrong. To my memory, whoever was faster in Q2 got the extra lap of fuel in Q3?

Also dont forget differing setups. Just because they had the same car wouldnt mean same setups.
From what I recall Alonso was usually faster in Q2? That puts end to the myth that he was not the best of qualifiers.
I remember being surprised when I saw that Alonso Won the qualifying head to head. But I dont remember if it was Q2 or Q3 data I was comparing
[/quote]

I think it is certainly Q2, Alonso was just as fast in qualifying as anyone not named Senna.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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raymondu999 wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:07 am

I remember being surprised when I saw that Alonso Won the qualifying head to head. But I dont remember if it was Q2 or Q3 data I was comparing
Hamilton out-qualified Alonso 10-7 in 2007 so it must have been in Q2 that you're remembering.
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Wass85
Wass85
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:21 am
raymondu999 wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:07 am

I remember being surprised when I saw that Alonso Won the qualifying head to head. But I dont remember if it was Q2 or Q3 data I was comparing
Hamilton out-qualified Alonso 10-7 in 2007 so it must have been in Q2 that you're remembering.
Yes it was certainly Q2, where they ran equal fuel loads. I was surprised to see Alonso was slightly faster than Hamilton that season in qualifying.

God I would have loved to have seen them go at it for one more season.

It's crazy that two drivers with completely different styles can be so close when they cross the line.

From what I remember Hamilton was much stronger on the brakes but Alonso was murdering Lewis through the high speed corners.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Wass85 wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:34 am


From what I remember Hamilton was much stronger on the brakes but Alonso was murdering Lewis through the high speed corners.
Hamilton's said in the past that his strength, and the key to some of his speed, is his braking and handling the car under braking. I seem to remember Hamilton commenting that Rosberg was quicker in some of the sinuous sections on some track. Can't remember the track, however. I don't think Hamilton is the quickest through the corners, but he is often the quickest over a lap. That's because lap time is found in the slow moments, not the fast moments.

Who can forget the move on Kimi in Monza where Hamilton can from way back braked so much later, carried a slightly smoking inside tyre in to the first chicane, got it turned in and the overtake done. Many drivers either lock the front tyre so badly they flat spot and/or understeer, or they end up with the back end coming round on them. It's keeping the car on the knife edge balance through the transitions of the corner that is his strength. Maybe that's why he's also good in the wet.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Wass85
Wass85
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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What I can't get my head around is why the hell would you want to run heavier in the race if it is only for a lap or two?

Surely running a lap longer in the race is going to be offset by running in dirty air and overheating the tyres?

I just can't see the logic in that when you are closely matched with your teammate, fair enough if you're much faster but when you are very close in speed track position is king.

Wass85
Wass85
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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.....
Last edited by Wass85 on Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Stop quoting your own posts, please.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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raymondu999 wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:07 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:29 pm


Hamilton had a similar style at McLaren, the "V" turn, as opposed to Jenson Button who did a smoother "U" curve, and it had an effect on tyre life of course. Sharply pivoting the car at the apex was quick, but put a lot of energy in a short time.
I’m not entirely certain that’s true. A V-line would of course have a higher peak load during the “Peak rotation” phase Of the corner but a C-line driver would of course have a lower peak loading...

But between higher apex speed (more downforce on tyres at time of rotation too) and prolonged cornering time, there has to be a ground where the C-line puts more energy through the tyres. More “area under the curve” as it were.
C- line puts more energy in overall, but the V line puts in alot in a shorter time.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Wass85 wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:11 am
What I can't get my head around is why the hell would you want to run heavier in the race if it is only for a lap or two?

Surely running a lap longer in the race is going to be offset by running in dirty air and overheating the tyres?

I just can't see the logic in that when you are closely matched with your teammate, fair enough if you're much faster but when you are very close in speed track position is king.
More fuel means you cannuse more power for longer... And it can work out if the driver is good at managing his tyre loads.. In the Bridgestone / michellin days the tyres could be pushed hard without much issue... So I reckon if a driver is naturally three tenths faster than the next guy and he has slighter better tyre management and braking skills, she should be able to carry three tenths worth of laptime more fuel as a safety net. I remember a few races in 2009 where guys were carrying more fuel but still had crazy pace!
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izzy
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:05 pm
More fuel means you cannuse more power for longer... And it can work out if the driver is good at managing his tyre loads.. In the Bridgestone / michellin days the tyres could be pushed hard without much issue... So I reckon if a driver is naturally three tenths faster than the next guy and he has slighter better tyre management and braking skills, she should be able to carry three tenths worth of laptime more fuel as a safety net. I remember a few races in 2009 where guys were carrying more fuel but still had crazy pace!
I think they just alternated so they weren't pitting on the same lap

That was the weird fuel burn laps thing (can you imagine today :shock:) that Lewis was trying to get round in Hungary, it was his turn to have the extra fuel

Oh and btw there was no difference in high speed corners either, there generally isn't :lol:

Wass85
Wass85
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:05 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:11 am
What I can't get my head around is why the hell would you want to run heavier in the race if it is only for a lap or two?

Surely running a lap longer in the race is going to be offset by running in dirty air and overheating the tyres?

I just can't see the logic in that when you are closely matched with your teammate, fair enough if you're much faster but when you are very close in speed track position is king.
More fuel means you cannuse more power for longer... And it can work out if the driver is good at managing his tyre loads.. In the Bridgestone / michellin days the tyres could be pushed hard without much issue... So I reckon if a driver is naturally three tenths faster than the next guy and he has slighter better tyre management and braking skills, she should be able to carry three tenths worth of laptime more fuel as a safety net. I remember a few races in 2009 where guys were carrying more fuel but still had crazy pace!
Yes I understand all that but my point is going faster in Q2 means that you started the race with one or two extra laps worth of fuel which means more than likely you are going to be at least behind your teammate.

Now when there's not much speed difference between you why would you want to be stuck behind other cars where you have to sit maybe at least 3 seconds behind to keep the car and tyres in good order?

Once released you're too far back to make up the time lost stuck behind your teammate in those one or two laps.

Wass85
Wass85
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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izzy wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:22 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Wed Apr 15, 2020 3:05 pm
More fuel means you cannuse more power for longer... And it can work out if the driver is good at managing his tyre loads.. In the Bridgestone / michellin days the tyres could be pushed hard without much issue... So I reckon if a driver is naturally three tenths faster than the next guy and he has slighter better tyre management and braking skills, she should be able to carry three tenths worth of laptime more fuel as a safety net. I remember a few races in 2009 where guys were carrying more fuel but still had crazy pace!
I think they just alternated so they weren't pitting on the same lap

That was the weird fuel burn laps thing (can you imagine today :shock:) that Lewis was trying to get round in Hungary, it was his turn to have the extra fuel

Oh and btw there was no difference in high speed corners either, there generally isn't :lol:
That still doesn't negate the fact that Q3 fuel was decided by who was quickest in Q2.

To me though track position is more important that running for a lap or two longer when you are so closely matched with your teammate.

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raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Didnt the overcut use to be like 2-3 seconds per lap though? The tyres didnt have much degradation, just wear... and then it would be you on 2 laps fuel vs the other guy on 23 laps fuel
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Wass85
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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raymondu999 wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:13 pm
Didnt the overcut use to be like 2-3 seconds per lap though? The tyres didnt have much degradation, just wear... and then it would be you on 2 laps fuel vs the other guy on 23 laps fuel
That was what I was waiting for. Well if the overcut was worth that much time then it really was a big benefit to be faster in Q2.