New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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GPR-A
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:52 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:35 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 2:51 pm


Read that release and you have only Benetton's word that it wasn't used in races. And as they lied about how it was accessed etc., why should anyone believe them about never having run it in races? Charlie certainly didn't.
How is it lying if there is no way to prove it? It's lying only because some want to believe it that way. No one had to believe them if they could have been proven wrong. Because FIA couldn't prove them wrong, Benetton's statement can't be argued.

It's like Mercedes burning oil all along in their PU, while nobody could prove it, but everyone believes it to be true.
The fact that something is lie does not require proof from a third party. If a statement is a lie, then it's lie. Just like you're speeding if you exceed the speed limit even though no one sees you doing it.

And Mercedes never denied oil burning so that'll be a straw man you're building.
Again, there was no official complaint and neither did FIA went looking for Mercedes, that doesn't doesn't mean they did not circumvent rules. See, nobody saw, doesn't mean it wasn't wrong.
So don't just talk what suits you. Oil burning wasn't covered in the regulations as it was a loop hole and that is why FIA didn't go after them. But that was cheating, as some called it. You can find hundred reasons to support Mercedes, just like you find hundred to blame others. The story from the other side will always be the same.

Just_a_fan
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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GPR-A wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:55 pm
Again, there was no official complaint and neither did FIA went looking for Mercedes, that doesn't doesn't mean they did not circumvent rules. See, nobody saw, doesn't mean it wasn't wrong.
So don't just talk what suits you. Oil burning wasn't covered in the regulations as it was a loop hole and that is why FIA didn't go after them. But that was cheating, as some called it. You can find hundred reasons to support Mercedes, just like you find hundred to blame others. The story from the other side will always be the same.
I've highlighted the relevant part there for you. It wasn't illegal. Thus it wasn't cheating. If the rules say "you must not burn oil" or "you must not have driver aids" and you burn oil or run with traction/launch control then you're cheating. If the rules don't preclude those things, then you can use them.

Mercedes and Ferrari certainly both burned oil and neither ever denied it so far I am aware. But then they didn't need to because it wasn't illegal, unlike Benetton's illegal traction/launch control system.

Really, it's not a difficult distinction to grasp.
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GPR-A
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:13 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:55 pm
Again, there was no official complaint and neither did FIA went looking for Mercedes, that doesn't doesn't mean they did not circumvent rules. See, nobody saw, doesn't mean it wasn't wrong.
So don't just talk what suits you. Oil burning wasn't covered in the regulations as it was a loop hole and that is why FIA didn't go after them. But that was cheating, as some called it. You can find hundred reasons to support Mercedes, just like you find hundred to blame others. The story from the other side will always be the same.
I've highlighted the relevant part there for you. It wasn't illegal. Thus it wasn't cheating. If the rules say "you must not burn oil" or "you must not have driver aids" and you burn oil or run with traction/launch control then you're cheating. If the rules don't preclude those things, then you can use them.

Mercedes and Ferrari certainly both burned oil and neither ever denied it so far I am aware. But then they didn't need to because it wasn't illegal, unlike Benetton's illegal traction/launch control system.

Really, it's not a difficult distinction to grasp.
... Oil was always meant to be used as only a lubricant and not as fuel! Doing that, is breach of regulations.

https://f1i.com/magazine/272459-mercede ... -fire.html
Interestingly, the topic was first raised by Red Bull, as the Milton Keynes-based outfit has been questioning Mercedes’ stunning one-lap pace in recent years. Having asked for clarification as early as 2015, Red Bull sought further answers from the FIA over the winter, with Formula 1’s ruling body confirming that using oil in such a way was indeed illegal.
You said, Mercedes never denied the oil burning claims?

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/12838 ... n-oil-burn
With F1 engines now operating on a closed system - with the engine sump breather having to vent in to the main engine air intake system - the possibility of using oil as fuel has increased, as it is more likely to get sucked into the chamber.

But such an action would be in breach of the rules, because manufacturers are strictly limited in terms of the chemicals that can be used to power the engines.

Mercedes insists that it was not employing such tactics and has always complied with the rules, but that has not helped the suspicions go away.
Last edited by Steven on Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Cut sillyness

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NathanOlder
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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Flavio always always cheated. Debate over.

Going back to when you said about Senna being a bad loser ect ect, he lost a lot to prost and others, can you give examples of him claiming others were cheating. I genuinely can't recall any. Obviously I'm forgetting them.

It's almost like your comparing Senna to the boy who cried Wolf. "Senna's accusing someone of cheating again, it won't be true"
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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Just explain how any of that means that Benetton weren't cheating...
Last edited by Steven on Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed personal comments
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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GPR-A
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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Simple. You don't get caught in the act, you are not cheating. Like it has been going on forever. Like Mercedes has done, like Ferrari has done and like many other teams have done and probably doing! No scope for what people FEELS.

FIA has never managed to catch extremely intelligent hacks. They are good for catching obvious ones or side with the ones who holds the power.
Last edited by Steven on Thu Jun 11, 2020 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed quoted post just above

Just_a_fan
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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GPR-A wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:28 am

Simple. You don't get caught in the act, you are not cheating.
You are still cheating even if you're not caught, but that's a semantic discussion...
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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B194 had exhaust blown diffuser. That can explain a lot. There was no traction control. There was disabled launch control. LC was legal couple months before and it's possible it was disabled and forgotten.

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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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sosic2121 wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:55 pm
B194 had exhaust blown diffuser. That can explain a lot. There was no traction control. There was disabled launch control. LC was legal couple months before and it's possible it was disabled and forgotten.
Everyone had blown diffusers then - the exhaust blew in to the diffuser just behind the diffuser kink.

It's possible it was disabled and forgotten but it was extremely well hidden and Benetton worked very hard trying to prevent the FIA from finding it.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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GPR-A
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:49 pm
sosic2121 wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:55 pm
B194 had exhaust blown diffuser. That can explain a lot. There was no traction control. There was disabled launch control. LC was legal couple months before and it's possible it was disabled and forgotten.
Everyone had blown diffusers then - the exhaust blew in to the diffuser just behind the diffuser kink.

It's possible it was disabled and forgotten but it was extremely well hidden and Benetton worked very hard trying to prevent the FIA from finding it.
It's strange how you are arguing on with what you feel, rather than what is proven.

A piece of code existed in the software, which was later figured out that, to make it work, it needed the whole software to be recompiled and redeployed on the car and even then, it was an elaborative procedure to get that piece of code activated. Nowhere it was established that it was activated on any of the race starts. Yet, you are arguing on. But still, you don't accept Mercedes was cheating with oil burning.

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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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GPR-A wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:48 am
to make it work, it needed the whole software to be recompiled and redeployed on the car
Interesting, I hadn't heard that little bit before. Do you have any more information on that?
Last edited by nzjrs on Thu Jun 11, 2020 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Just_a_fan
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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GPR-A wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:48 am
A piece of code existed in the software, which was later figured out that, to make it work, it needed the whole software to be recompiled and redeployed on the car and even then, it was an elaborative procedure to get that piece of code activated.
No. The code could be easily loaded on to the car in seconds from a laptop.
Benetton stated that this system is used only during testing. Benetton further stated that "it (the system) can only be switched on by recompilation of the code". This means recompilation of the source code. Detailed analysis by the LDRA experts of this complex code revealed that this statement was untrue. "Launch control" could in fact be switched on using a lap-top personal computer (PC) connected to the gearbox control unit (GCU).

When confronted with this information, the Benetton representatives conceded that it was possible to switch on the "launch control" using a lap-top PC but indicated that the availability of this feature of the software came as a surprise to them.

In order to enable "launch control", a particular menu with ten options, has to be selected on the PC screen. "Launch control" is not visibly listed as an option. The menu was so arranged that, after ten items, nothing further appeared. If however, the operator scrolled down the menu beyond the tenth listed option, to option 13, launch control can be enabled, even though this is not visible on the screen. No satisfactory explanation was offered for this apparent attempt to conceal the feature.

Two conditions had to be satisfied before the computer would apply "launch control": First, the software had to be enabled either by recompiling the code, which would take some minutes, or by connecting the lap-top PC as outlined above, which could be done in a matter of seconds.
And whether Mercedes are guilty or not doesn't change the circumstances around Benetton.

Benetton had a system on the car that they kept claiming they didn't have, then refused to prove they didn't have, then accepted they had but it couldn't be used, then accepted it could be used but they didn't use it. "Honest, Guv, swear blind we didn't use it".

Anyway, enough on it now. Nothing will change the past.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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NathanOlder
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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That seals it for me.
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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Yes but... it’s impossible that <insert favourite driver> ever cheated....

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GPR-A
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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Mandela effect. A non existent truth makes up a world of their liking for some people.