New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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nzjrs
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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GPR-A wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:24 pm
Mandela effect. A non existent truth makes up a world of their liking for some people.
Sorry, could you share the part about how the traction control (or general) software had to be recompiled and reuploaded in order to be usable. I hadn't seen that bit before.

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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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nzjrs wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:42 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:24 pm
Mandela effect. A non existent truth makes up a world of their liking for some people.
Sorry, could you share the part about how the traction control (or general) software had to be recompiled and reuploaded in order to be usable. I hadn't seen that bit before.
Benetton apparently said that was the case when asked by the FIA. It was then found not to be the case, or rather it wasn't the only way of doing it. Turned out that a simple laptop being plugged in to the car could do it. Plugging a laptop in to the car is the sort of thing that is done on the grid at every race, in fact.

To activate the launch control, the driver had to activate a secret menu that, even when selected didn't show up. This, Benetton said, was to prevent it being selected accidentally. Why would it be selected accidentally if you didn't even have it on the car, one wonders, as you claimed. Hmmm, all a bit fishy. Not unusual - teams have been doing "interesting" things like this for years. Lead shot, anyone?
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NathanOlder
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:54 pm
nzjrs wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:42 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:24 pm
Mandela effect. A non existent truth makes up a world of their liking for some people.
Sorry, could you share the part about how the traction control (or general) software had to be recompiled and reuploaded in order to be usable. I hadn't seen that bit before.
Benetton apparently said that was the case when asked by the FIA. It was then found not to be the case, or rather it wasn't the only way of doing it. Turned out that a simple laptop being plugged in to the car could do it. Plugging a laptop in to the car is the sort of thing that is done on the grid at every race, in fact.

To activate the launch control, the driver had to activate a secret menu that, even when selected didn't show up. This, Benetton said, was to prevent it being selected accidentally. Why would it be selected accidentally if you didn't even have it on the car, one wonders, as you claimed. Hmmm, all a bit fishy. Not unusual - teams have been doing "interesting" things like this for years. Lead shot, anyone?
So what you're saying is Benetton outright lied about some things and was proven to be lying.

If so, how can anyone, even Benetton or Schumacher fans claim its very possible or even probable that they cheated with TC in 1994.
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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So... before the investigation Senna said: they cheat
When the FIA asked for the ICU Benneton stalled... stalled... and were made to hand it over
It was proven that there were illegal driver aids, but Benneton did not use the hidden switch
Verstappen came out years later “that car was illegal
Benneton was caught cheating on other maters as well that season
Briatore caught cheating years later as well.

The only defence is “well... that switch we tried to hide so well that you found.. we didn’t use it”

Yeah, right...

So if you make a bypass line passed the fuel flow meters, with a switch in the dashboard, is all legal, as long as nobody see you press it?

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GPR-A
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:54 pm
nzjrs wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:42 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:24 pm
Mandela effect. A non existent truth makes up a world of their liking for some people.
Sorry, could you share the part about how the traction control (or general) software had to be recompiled and reuploaded in order to be usable. I hadn't seen that bit before.
Benetton apparently said that was the case when asked by the FIA. It was then found not to be the case, or rather it wasn't the only way of doing it. Turned out that a simple laptop being plugged in to the car could do it. Plugging a laptop in to the car is the sort of thing that is done on the grid at every race, in fact.

To activate the launch control, the driver had to activate a secret menu that, even when selected didn't show up. This, Benetton said, was to prevent it being selected accidentally. Why would it be selected accidentally if you didn't even have it on the car, one wonders, as you claimed. Hmmm, all a bit fishy. Not unusual - teams have been doing "interesting" things like this for years. Lead shot, anyone?
Just to remind you, plugging of laptop into a car thingy is modern, not 1994-ish. There's a lot of footage available from 1994. Check that and see the race start preparations and find out out how many laptop wielding engineers you would find on the grid or how many cars are plugged with laptops. You also need to check how the commercial laptops of 1994 worked!

Windows as OS wasn't there yet (for plug and play capabilities) and some other shiny ones didn't have ECU building supporting platform yet. I thought that bit of knowledge helps you. Just search and see, what programming/system/assembly language was being used to create ECU software back then, the way to compile them and load in cars. You might get some decent answers to the ranting that FIA guy has done in his 1994 report. The FIA report says, "can be done in seconds". Anyone who has been programming in early 90s knows, it too far fetched to compile and transfer those executable artifacts to the car in seconds. I guess your "ShareIt" knowledge is oversimplifying things for you.

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GPR-A
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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nzjrs wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:42 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:24 pm
Mandela effect. A non existent truth makes up a world of their liking for some people.
Sorry, could you share the part about how the traction control (or general) software had to be recompiled and reuploaded in order to be usable. I hadn't seen that bit before.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/bene ... 55/?nrt=54
Two conditions had to be satisfied before the computer would apply "launch control": First, the software had to be enabled either by recompiling the code, which would take some minutes, or by connecting the lap-top PC as outlined above, which could be done in a matter of seconds.

Secondly, the driver had to work through a particular sequence of up-down gear shift paddle positions, a specific gear position had to be selected and the clutch and throttle pedals had also to be in certain positions. Only if all these actions were carried out would the "launch control" become available.
This is the FIA version of their truth. It's hilarious how the report is written. Software compilation in seconds, "A specific gear" (no specifics here from FIA), "Clutch and throttle pedals also be in certain position"! How does one manage that at a race start? They aren't gears to be put in a certain position, they are moving pedals!

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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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GPR-A wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:03 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:54 pm
nzjrs wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:42 pm


Sorry, could you share the part about how the traction control (or general) software had to be recompiled and reuploaded in order to be usable. I hadn't seen that bit before.
Benetton apparently said that was the case when asked by the FIA. It was then found not to be the case, or rather it wasn't the only way of doing it. Turned out that a simple laptop being plugged in to the car could do it. Plugging a laptop in to the car is the sort of thing that is done on the grid at every race, in fact.

To activate the launch control, the driver had to activate a secret menu that, even when selected didn't show up. This, Benetton said, was to prevent it being selected accidentally. Why would it be selected accidentally if you didn't even have it on the car, one wonders, as you claimed. Hmmm, all a bit fishy. Not unusual - teams have been doing "interesting" things like this for years. Lead shot, anyone?
Just to remind you, plugging of laptop into a car thingy is modern, not 1994-ish. There's a lot of footage available from 1994. Check that and see the race start preparations and find out out how many laptop wielding engineers you would find on the grid or how many cars are plugged with laptops. You also need to check how the commercial laptops of 1994 worked!

Windows as OS wasn't there yet (for plug and play capabilities) and some other shiny ones didn't have ECU building supporting platform yet. I thought that bit of knowledge helps you. Just search and see, what programming/system/assembly language was being used to create ECU software back then, the way to compile them and load in cars. You might get some decent answers to the ranting that FIA guy has done in his 1994 report. The FIA report says, "can be done in seconds". Anyone who has been programming in early 90s knows, it too far fetched to compile and transfer those executable artifacts to the car in seconds. I guess your "ShareIt" knowledge is oversimplifying things for you.
Imola 1994.

https://images.app.goo.gl/nxQ4bkTaHmVW5qos9

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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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GPR-A wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:03 am
Just to remind you, plugging of laptop into a car thingy is modern, not 1994-ish. There's a lot of footage available from 1994. Check that and see the race start preparations and find out out how many laptop wielding engineers you would find on the grid or how many cars are plugged with laptops. You also need to check how the commercial laptops of 1994 worked!
Windows as OS wasn't there yet (for plug and play capabilities) and some other shiny ones didn't have ECU building supporting platform yet. I thought that bit of knowledge helps you. Just search and see, what programming/system/assembly language was being used to create ECU software back then, the way to compile them and load in cars.
I don't care about the squabble you are in right now, but I do remember what laptops were like in the early 90's as I used quite a few IBM Thinkpads back then. They were generally quite heavy (5 kg at least), bulkier than modern laptops but easily recognisable as a laptop. Screens were about 10 inch, and they tended to have 486 processors at that time. The battery life was short but in the hours, so plenty of battery life to use on the move. Windows 3.1 running on top of MS-DOS was common.

Plug and play is not an issue in this case. Without plug and play it is the setting up of devices that is difficult, once they're set up they behave like you would expect and can be plugged and unplugged at will. There is no reason that a setting in a control unit couldn't be changed while on the grid or in the garage.

Last race I watched was the 1995 Monaco GP, here are some shots of the grid preparations: https://imgur.com/a/5ooZAcf

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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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Jolle wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:34 am
GPR-A wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:03 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:54 pm


Benetton apparently said that was the case when asked by the FIA. It was then found not to be the case, or rather it wasn't the only way of doing it. Turned out that a simple laptop being plugged in to the car could do it. Plugging a laptop in to the car is the sort of thing that is done on the grid at every race, in fact.

To activate the launch control, the driver had to activate a secret menu that, even when selected didn't show up. This, Benetton said, was to prevent it being selected accidentally. Why would it be selected accidentally if you didn't even have it on the car, one wonders, as you claimed. Hmmm, all a bit fishy. Not unusual - teams have been doing "interesting" things like this for years. Lead shot, anyone?
Just to remind you, plugging of laptop into a car thingy is modern, not 1994-ish. There's a lot of footage available from 1994. Check that and see the race start preparations and find out out how many laptop wielding engineers you would find on the grid or how many cars are plugged with laptops. You also need to check how the commercial laptops of 1994 worked!

Windows as OS wasn't there yet (for plug and play capabilities) and some other shiny ones didn't have ECU building supporting platform yet. I thought that bit of knowledge helps you. Just search and see, what programming/system/assembly language was being used to create ECU software back then, the way to compile them and load in cars. You might get some decent answers to the ranting that FIA guy has done in his 1994 report. The FIA report says, "can be done in seconds". Anyone who has been programming in early 90s knows, it too far fetched to compile and transfer those executable artifacts to the car in seconds. I guess your "ShareIt" knowledge is oversimplifying things for you.
Imola 1994.

https://images.app.goo.gl/nxQ4bkTaHmVW5qos9
It's a topic I've lost interest in, but the photo can't be Imola 1994. Maybe France, not that it makes a difference to your point.

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NathanOlder
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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Jolle wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:34 am
GPR-A wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:03 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:54 pm


Benetton apparently said that was the case when asked by the FIA. It was then found not to be the case, or rather it wasn't the only way of doing it. Turned out that a simple laptop being plugged in to the car could do it. Plugging a laptop in to the car is the sort of thing that is done on the grid at every race, in fact.

To activate the launch control, the driver had to activate a secret menu that, even when selected didn't show up. This, Benetton said, was to prevent it being selected accidentally. Why would it be selected accidentally if you didn't even have it on the car, one wonders, as you claimed. Hmmm, all a bit fishy. Not unusual - teams have been doing "interesting" things like this for years. Lead shot, anyone?
Just to remind you, plugging of laptop into a car thingy is modern, not 1994-ish. There's a lot of footage available from 1994. Check that and see the race start preparations and find out out how many laptop wielding engineers you would find on the grid or how many cars are plugged with laptops. You also need to check how the commercial laptops of 1994 worked!

Windows as OS wasn't there yet (for plug and play capabilities) and some other shiny ones didn't have ECU building supporting platform yet. I thought that bit of knowledge helps you. Just search and see, what programming/system/assembly language was being used to create ECU software back then, the way to compile them and load in cars. You might get some decent answers to the ranting that FIA guy has done in his 1994 report. The FIA report says, "can be done in seconds". Anyone who has been programming in early 90s knows, it too far fetched to compile and transfer those executable artifacts to the car in seconds. I guess your "ShareIt" knowledge is oversimplifying things for you.
Imola 1994.

https://images.app.goo.gl/nxQ4bkTaHmVW5qos9

=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

Damon Hill , double world champion. Sounds right. Although if Benetton didnt cheat at all, maybe it would be, Hill multiple race winner, and Senna 7 time world champion. Jacques Villeneuve multiple IndyCar champion.
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nzjrs
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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GPR-A wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:19 am
nzjrs wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 9:42 pm
Sorry, could you share the part about how the traction control (or general) software had to be recompiled and reuploaded in order to be usable. I hadn't seen that bit before.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/bene ... 55/?nrt=54
Two conditions had to be satisfied before the computer would apply "launch control": First, the software had to be enabled either by recompiling the code, which would take some minutes, or by connecting the lap-top PC as outlined above, which could be done in a matter of seconds.

Secondly, the driver had to work through a particular sequence of up-down gear shift paddle positions, a specific gear position had to be selected and the clutch and throttle pedals had also to be in certain positions. Only if all these actions were carried out would the "launch control" become available.
This is the FIA version of their truth. It's hilarious how the report is written. Software compilation in seconds, "A specific gear" (no specifics here from FIA), "Clutch and throttle pedals also be in certain position"! How does one manage that at a race start? They aren't gears to be put in a certain position, they are moving pedals!
Thanks for the link! I don't really have a position on the broader topic, but I will correct one point. There is nothing hilarious or implausible about the compilation or uploading portion of their statement as you insinuate.

Sadly your clipped quote (bold) doesn't represent the document fairly or even help your position. The FIA document quote "enabled either by recompiling the code, which would take some minutes, or by connecting the lap-top PC as outlined above, which could be done in a matter of seconds." can be more accurately read from an embedded systems engineer standpoint
  • compilation (minutes, likely) and naturally subsequent upload/programming OR
  • upload of previously compiled firmware (10s of seconds) OR
  • set some flags in eeprom to enable this functionality (over serial console I guess) OR
The latter 2 such strategies is the approach I would have taken if I was an engineer at that time, and it is certainly doable within seconds.

General re programmable micro-controllers were available since the early 90s (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcontroller is shallow but gets the main dates OK) so the above doesnt sound difficult to me. Even before then they would have had parts of the firmware adjustable using EEPROM or flash (re)programming technology.

As an aside, I would be very interested in what the actual ECU electronics of that era was. It was ~10 years before my embedded education time, what was used 6800 / 8051 / TMS32 I guess? Anyone here around from those days?
3jawchuck wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:49 am
GPR-A wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:03 am
Just to remind you, plugging of laptop into a car thingy is modern, not 1994-ish. There's a lot of footage available from 1994. Check that and see the race start preparations and find out out how many laptop wielding engineers you would find on the grid or how many cars are plugged with laptops. You also need to check how the commercial laptops of 1994 worked!
Windows as OS wasn't there yet (for plug and play capabilities) and some other shiny ones didn't have ECU building supporting platform yet. I thought that bit of knowledge helps you. Just search and see, what programming/system/assembly language was being used to create ECU software back then, the way to compile them and load in cars.
Plug and play is not an issue in this case. Without plug and play it is the setting up of devices that is difficult, once they're set up they behave like you would expect and can be plugged and unplugged at will. There is no reason that a setting in a control unit couldn't be changed while on the grid or in the garage.
Agree with 3jawchuck here for another reason. Laptops and firmware programming of that era was probably serial or parallel port based, both of which ironically are still more plug-and-play that your average interface+modern computer+driver dogs breakfast!.
Last edited by nzjrs on Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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NathanOlder
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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Jolle wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:34 am


Imola 1994.

https://images.app.goo.gl/nxQ4bkTaHmVW5qos9
Not that it makes any difference as this photo is clearly 1994, it doesn't look like Imola to me. Pretty sure its Jerez
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:38 pm
Jolle wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:34 am


Imola 1994.

https://images.app.goo.gl/nxQ4bkTaHmVW5qos9
Not that it makes any difference as this photo is clearly 1994, it doesn't look like Imola to me.
Then it could have been labelled wrong indeed. Anyway, it’s a Benneton mechanic with the tool to push the secret “button” that Benneton said they never pushed....

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NathanOlder
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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Jolle wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:47 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:38 pm
Jolle wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:34 am


Imola 1994.

https://images.app.goo.gl/nxQ4bkTaHmVW5qos9
Not that it makes any difference as this photo is clearly 1994, it doesn't look like Imola to me.
Then it could have been labelled wrong indeed. Anyway, it’s a Benneton mechanic with the tool to push the secret “button” that Benneton said they never pushed....
Yeah exactly, the right car, the right year, laptop on the grid. Boom.
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Re: New theory emerges on the Most Controversial F1 season and Schumacher's maiden World Championship

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Jolle wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:14 pm
1994 was a f*7ked up season and almost ended F1. Not just the two deaths in one race but also left the sport without a star or world champion.

Briatores team cheated, a lot. But the FIA/FOM were left with a problem. They couldn't taint this season even more by excluding Benneton or Schumacher. In 1994 there was no one else that could replace the stars it lost in the years before. Remember, in the late eighties/early nineties you had Mansell, Prost, Senna, Piquet.... Would be like Hamilton, Vettel, Raikkonen and Alonso all retired at the same time and we were left with Verstappen vs Bottas.

The evidence is quite clear: The FIA investigation that found hidden software in the ECU, the pitlane fire, Senna's view, Verstappen's story and that Briatore (and Schumacher in lesser extent) had a big hand in foul play in later seasons.

It's a real shame, Schumachers talent shouldn't have needed this.
I'm not alone in considering F1 these days more or less "ruined". Imola 1994 is what did it.

A long and steady stream of changes starting then has led to where we are now.