2020 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 3-5 July

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Restomaniac
Restomaniac
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Re: 2020 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 3-5 July

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
03 Jul 2020, 20:33
Most cars were copies of redbull in the last decade. Pull rod. Blown exhaust. High rake.

What Racing point has done is made the copying itself an engineering discipline (and it actually is in real life!) and applied that to a winning specimen.

I remember in university.. First year.. Intro to engineering course... "Reverse engineering" was stated as a
acceptable form of engineering.

America reverse engineered the hell out of russian designs to make the planes they have today.

Nissan and Porsche. Porsche and Nissan.
Ford and Ferrari. Lamborghin vs Ferrari. BMW vs Benz.. The lost goes on.. Who isn't reverse engineering is the question.
The best story is Compaq reverse engineering the IBM BIOS. It had to DO exactly what the IBM BIOS did WITHOUT being the IBM BIOS. They had to be very careful to not use ANYONE who had been in any contact with IBM or even seen their Instruction manuals They then beat IBM in getting a home PC on the market using IBM’s own BIOS data.........Outcome? Same result for a fraction of the cost incurred by IBM who had done all the donkey work.

Point being that reverse engineering is a known and used tactic. Is still think RP were given help my Mercedes personally but it’s not like it’s never happened before and as such it’s not beyond the realms that RP just did it the old fashioned way (reverse engineered) but they then get it for a fraction of Mercedes’ costs but they run the risk of it not working.
Last edited by Restomaniac on 03 Jul 2020, 21:26, edited 3 times in total.

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Zynerji
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Re: 2020 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 3-5 July

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Is Renaults rear wing endplates new? Looks like they have scoop wings integrated into the offset..

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Morteza
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Re: 2020 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 3-5 July

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"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

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Morteza
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Re: 2020 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 3-5 July

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Image

Image
"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

Marble
Marble
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Re: 2020 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 3-5 July

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A few pointers on top speeds and cornering speeds (BP of FP2) :

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Wouter
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Re: 2020 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 3-5 July

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The Power of Dreams!

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Wouter
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Re: 2020 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 3-5 July

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The Power of Dreams!

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godlameroso
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Re: 2020 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 3-5 July

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Still don't think that's representative. The stints were different lengths. Everything will become obvious tomorrow.
Saishū kōnā

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Big Tea
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Re: 2020 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 3-5 July

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Does the above table mean that Ferrari and the others still showing 7 sets of soft have not run at all on them? Is this wise? even a few laps on one of the cars sounds like a 'must do ' to me.
I know they have run here before on the tyre equivalent, but it was a long time ago since it was run anywhere and it rained too
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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MtthsMlw
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Re: 2020 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 3-5 July

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Big Tea wrote:
03 Jul 2020, 23:00
Does the above table mean that Ferrari and the others still showing 7 sets of soft have not run at all on them? Is this wise? even a few laps on one of the cars sounds like a 'must do ' to me.
I know they have run here before on the tyre equivalent, but it was a long time ago since it was run anywhere and it rained too
Everyone had 8 sets of softs so they used one. Most likely for quali sims in FP2.

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Laserguru
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Re: 2020 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 3-5 July

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Sierra117 wrote:
03 Jul 2020, 14:57
Yo! Long time no see errbody, hope all is well and if not hope things get better soon.

Nice to see F1 back, hopefully they take maximum precautions.

Merc looking great in black, both aesthetically and purpose-wise.

Just saw that bit of Mattia being interviewed. Sounds juicy. It's like they just pulled the plug on Seb with intention.
Just saw the interview and got the bad feeling they know they cannot win a title for sure coming two years hence no need to hire Seb. Save money. Sad in so many ways.

Also, the onboard sound of Ferrari was horrible! Please change the mic position! Am I the only one? The sound of wheels on the ribbed kerbs sounds so much better in reality too. Buy a set of decent microphones please.

xwz
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Re: 2020 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 3-5 July

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MtthsMlw wrote:
03 Jul 2020, 18:24
There we go
https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/1279088183440027651

3.8 is about Aerodynamic Influence
10.2.3 No adjustment may be made to any suspension system while the car is in motion
Regarding 10.2.3 - if "steering the front wheels" is considered an "adjustment to a suspension system", wouldn't then drivers be obliged to bring the car to a standstill prior to each steering operation?
.-)
If on the other hand, in the light of such obvious absurdity, 10.2.3 is considered "not applicable" to "steering the front wheels", it wouldn't be applicable to DAS as well, unless there's a requirement in the books that any steering operation must turn both front wheels in the same direction, or the like -

(Just asking/ speculating, not familiar with the rule book)

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Morteza
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Re: 2020 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 3-5 July

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It is legal

Image
Last edited by Morteza on 04 Jul 2020, 00:44, edited 1 time in total.
"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2020 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 3-5 July

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Happy days. Now Horner and Marko can concentrate on making their car faster instead of trying to slow others down
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New found love for GT racing with Assetto Corsa Competizione on PS5 & PC

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2020 Austrian Grand Prix - Spielberg, 3-5 July

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Back to business, boys!! 8)
‘Having considered the various statements made by the parties and listened to the expert witness statements made at the hearing, the Stewards determine the following:

The DAS system allows the driver to adjust the toe angle of the front wheels by a longitudinal motion of the steering wheel along the steering column. So the steering wheel has two degrees of freedom:

‐ Rotational degree of freedom around the steering column axis: this provides the conventional steering response of the car

‐ Longitudinal degree of freedom along the steering column axis: this steers the wheels independently from each other, thus adjusting the toe.

The DAS is hydraulically‐assisted like any conventional Formula 1 steering system, but remains under the full control of the driver at all times. Physically, the DAS is integrated with the conventional steering system of the car.

The Stewards believe DAS is part of the Steering system, albeit not a conventional one. The key challenges to the legality of DAS rely on it not being part of the Steering system. If this were indeed the case, then it would be breaching the following Technical & Sporting Regulations:

1. Article 3.8 (Aerodynamic Influence): the position of the front wheels affects the aerodynamic performance of the car, and is controlled by the driver. An exception is de facto made for steering, otherwise all cars would be illegal. If DAS fell outside this exception, it would be illegal.

2. Article 10.1.2, which states that the front suspension system must be so arranged that its response results only from changes in load applied to the front wheels. Again there is an implicit exception for steering. So if DAS was not part of the steering system, it would fall foul of this regulation too.

3. Article 10.2.1, which states that with the steering wheel fixed, the position of each wheel must be only influenced by (a) its vertical position, and (b) minor compliances. Clearly if the DAS was not considered to be part of the steering, and to hence provide an independent adjustment of the wheel position, it would be illegal. Steering is a de facto exception, and if DAS was not considered to be part of it then it would fall foul of those Articles.

4. Articles 10.2.2 and 10.2.3, related to adjustments of the suspension whilst the car is in motion or powered suspension systems.
5. Article 34.6 of the Sporting Regulations: this forbids an adjustment of suspension in parc fermé. It is, for example, not permitted to adjust the toe angle by mechanically adjusting the length of the steering arms during parc fermé. Clearly (again) steering is a de facto exception, and if DAS was not considered to be part of it then it would fall foul of this Article.

As a general conclusion, it is very simple to conclude DAS would be illegal IF it were not part of the steering system. So the main challenge and debate has to be on whether it can be considered to be part of the steering system.

The Stewards decide that DAS is a part of the Steering system.

1. Article 1.2 states that “at least two (wheels) are used for steering” and Article 10.4.1 states that “the re‐alignment of more than two wheels is not permitted”. These two articles hence limit the number of steered wheels to 2, but crucially no reference is made on that realignment being of a single degree of freedom (i.e. the LH wheel having a single function of position in relation to the RH wheel).

2. There is no direct definition of steering, but one can plausibly suggest that:

a. Steering changes the direction of the car

b. During steering the steered wheels rotate about a vertical or near‐vertical axis to change their direction, and hence steer the car.

3. Changes in toe affect the direction of the car in two ways:

a. If toe changes in a corner, the effect will be asymmetric and hence the trajectory of the car will change b. If the driver applies a steering wheel (rotational) input, the response of the car will depend on the toe angle of the wheels, hence the fore‐aft position of the DAS will have a direct steering effect.

4. Mechanically, the DAS re‐aligns the two front wheels via the same central mechanism that conventional steering does (i.e. the PAS). The fact it acts on the track rod is, we believe, entirely equivalent to the conventional steering.

5. A hydraulically‐powered DAS which remains under the full control of the driver is also entirely consistent with the hydraulically‐powered conventional steering system.

Because of the above arguments, the Stewards believe that DAS can be legitimately considered to be part of the car’s steering system, and hence that it should be subjected to the same implicit or explicit regulations as the conventional steering system.
The Stewards decide that DAS is not in breach of the suspension‐related regulations.

1. Fundamentally suspension has the purpose to insulate the sprung mass of the car from the undulations in the track surface. The alignment of each front wheel (i.e. its steering angle) has an effect on the suspension, but this is incidental. Article 10.2.1 specifically deals with this matter, stating that “With the steering wheel fixed, the position of each wheel centre…etc.”. This Article essentially separates the function of the suspension and that of the steering. It is also clear that the steering wheel position is in this case a two‐degree‐of‐freedom system.

2. Consequentially, the legality of the DAS system is identical to the conventional steering system in terms of the legality under Articles 10.1.2, 10.2.2 and 10.2.3.

3. The legality of the DAS system under other parts of the regulations (Article 3.8 – aerodynamic effect, ride height with steer (TD/003‐18), etc.) is equivalent to that of the conventional steering system as the DAS, for the reasons stated, is considered to be part of the car’s steering system.

For the above reasons the Stewards conclude that the DAS system is not part of the suspension, nor can it be considered to illegitimately adjust the suspension.

Therefore the Stewards consider DAS to be a legitimate part of the steering system and hence to satisfy the relevant regulations regarding suspension or aerodynamic influence.

In the opinion of the Stewards, the DAS system is physically and functionally a part of the steering system.
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