2020 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 17-19

[SmallSoldier]

For me - what makes me excited in F1 - is a fightning wheel to wheel and 0.010 gap between. This is racing and this is adrenaline.

If for you guys it is amazing when one team is 1s quicker than anyone else... ok...

That is not F1. F1 has almost always had a dominant team. There was few years as exception. With regards to the last 4-5 years, other teams have to do a better job than cheating (Ferrari) or designing cars only good at single type of circuits (hand stand Redbull). If 2 year old Merc (RP) can beat the new Ferrari and Redbull that is not Merc's fault.

F1 is demonstration of bleeding edge of tech + strategy + great driving + some luck.

Great driving is part of F1, not the whole.

It is a "team" "motor" "sport".

F1 might always have had a dominant team, but it almost never ended by other teams doing better, so plesse stop with that statement. Williams in 90, new regs. Ferrari in 00, new regs, red bull 10, new regs. Mercedes would never have caught up with RB if the V8 were still arround, and Vettel would be 10 WDC. No one would have liked that. I will not take anything from Hamilton, he is awsome, I will rater have him breaking all the records than Vettel, but I even sense he would like to compete on a more level playing field.

FIA have tried a lot, but I do not even think budget caps or similar will change much, MB are so fare ahead that they can sleep one year and still win. I love the things they invent (in the interest of the sports innovative history) DAS, FRIC, burning oil. I even like Ferrari for trying so hard to be competitive, OK they did not stay on the right side of the rules, but that does not mean that the fuel flow trick was not inventive and impressive. But DAS could just as easily have been unlegal. Now it isn’t, but as long as we have the tires we have now and more importantly the PU system, no one but MB will be WCC. So 2022 is the best chance in many years. I just think they should look equally at regulating mechanical suspention parts as aero. I think many underestimate how goon MB are in that area. I drive KZ2 gokarts myself, and getting on the throttle early in corners or even on kerbs wins you a lot of laptime.

So, the fact that those other teams that dominated during “X Era” didn’t have the capability to continue that domination afterwards is Mercedes problem? Mercedes is where it’s at because unlike others, they have managed to maintain the status of Top Team regardless of changes in regulations... Everyone has had a chance to catch them and they simply can’t do it... You say that is because of the PU remaining constant? That’s the best thing that can happen to other teams since eventually they all converge and last season, even the likes of Renault and Honda were there or thereabouts with Mercedes in terms of power with Ferrari (although with suspected tactics) was superior... Ferrari had the chance of finally breaking the streak of Mercedes in 2019 (and in my view also in 2018) and didn’t took advantage of it due to their own mistakes.

You talk about 0.010 gaps in Formula 1? Please tell me when that was a reality? I still remember Prost lapping not once, but twice every single other car in the field up to P6 and that was 3 decades ago... There have always been strong / top teams, midfield teams and backmarkers and that won’t change anytime soon (although, with as prohibitive in terms of innovation as the 2022 rules apparently are, this might help).


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[SmallSoldier]

I think Bottas has proven himself to be very fast, especially over 1 lap. It's race craft where Lewis really differentiates himself from Valteri.

I don't get the RP hate, and I am saying this as a Mclaren fan. The other teams not pushing the rules in regard to copying a proven design is foolish. Eventually they come around (see: tunnels, high nose, mid engine vs front engine, reclined seating positions, etc).

This is where good team managers are worth their weight in gold. They basically are the captain steering the ship and set the direction.

There is copying and copying... All teams know that Mercedes handled the data to Racing Point, they just can not prove it.

Just think about this - Even Mercedes itself has issues to develop a thin nose. It took them a lot of effort and multiple crash testing to develop the tiniest nose. None of the other team was able to replicate it to the same level (because it is about the internal structures of the honeycomb aluminium and about the layers of different carbon fibre types and orientations) and now Racing Point just "look" at the pictures and boom did it one the first try... Even if they 3D scanned the whole Mercedes they needed a lot of "help" or "insider info" to "replicate" it...

Usually, when teams trying new stuff there is always some level of issues (overheating, vibrations, lack of stiffness, ...), but not in Racing Point, they "changed" the whole concept and did it on the firts try - must have the most experienced engineers in F1...

"All teams know.. but they cannot prove it". So it's just suspicion at this point. I'm not thrilled about it, but if one makes declarative statements, they need to back it up with evidence. So far, none has surfaced. Credit to Renault for leading the charge on that.


As for copying, then if they are found legal, then good on them. They exploited a loophole and got a competitive advantage. That's racing in a nutshell. The fall out would be teams requiring more parts to be designed in-house, but there is a balancing act as doing so raises the entry cost for new teams and puts teams like Williams and Haas on even more of a back foot.

Half the discussion on here is speculative. "This person could have won", "someone would have dnf'ed anyway", etc. The great part about racing is the results are what they are and anything is capable of happening up until the finish line. Speculation is just that. It's fun, it's a sport onto itself, but it doesn't change what was.

Very sensible statements... The issue with the perceived “hate” over RP is because they don’t have the fan base of other teams and of course it hurts some of their fans to see a midfield team with a fraction of the resources of their own teams suddenly up there towards the front of the grid... Every team is looking for every loophole in order to get a competitive advantage, they found the best one and were lucky that the car they copied was so far ahead the rest of the competition, that suddenly they are locking the second row for a race.

I can’t remember this amount of hate when Haas showed up with what seemingly was a Ferrari copy also, same business model as RP... Out of nowhere an almost new team in Formula 1 was P5/P6 on the opening race in Australia, continuously fighting in Q3 and on many weekends “best of the rest”... But, all the ones in the top 3 were gaining so much over previous year that it didn’t made as many headlines... If Ferrari and Red Bull would have gotten it right and achieved an increase in performance similar to the one Mercedes did with the W11 we would be hearing half the amount of crying.


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[mkay]

HAM didn't cost ALB anything in hindsight. ALB DNF'd due to a mechanical failure of some sort, and clearly ALB didn't give HAM the same room he then gave PER the next race, showing he probably realized he created his own misfortune by Schumi chopping HAM.

What an utterly pathetic post! Exactly the sort of post that brings down the quality of a forum.

Albon's DNF could have resulted from the collision as attributed to by Honda although I do acknowledge that they could be mind games. I have no bias of any form towards Albon and thank heavens the stewards had more sense than you. I can see the side of the argument that Hamilton's penalty was harsh although that's a whole new subject of discussion but to say Albon called for the collision or to say that hindsight proves that Albon's result wasn't affected shows your pathetic bias. May be then, you should feel that Vettel shouldn't have been penalised for Baku 2017 as Hamilton was anyway not going to win because of his headrest?

Pathetic!

Very well said.
Some of the Lewis fans are simply blind who can't accept that he can have lapse in judgement.

Perhaps HAM had a lapse in judgment (shouldn’t have defended as hard as he did?) but so did ALB by trying a risky move around the outside at a corner which is tricky enough already against a guy on worn out hards, instead of sitting and picking him and his teammate off easily down the next DRS zones.

[Mr.G]

There is copying and copying... All teams know that Mercedes handled the data to Racing Point, they just can not prove it.

Just think about this - Even Mercedes itself has issues to develop a thin nose. It took them a lot of effort and multiple crash testing to develop the tiniest nose. None of the other team was able to replicate it to the same level (because it is about the internal structures of the honeycomb aluminium and about the layers of different carbon fibre types and orientations) and now Racing Point just "look" at the pictures and boom did it one the first try... Even if they 3D scanned the whole Mercedes they needed a lot of "help" or "insider info" to "replicate" it...

Usually, when teams trying new stuff there is always some level of issues (overheating, vibrations, lack of stiffness, ...), but not in Racing Point, they "changed" the whole concept and did it on the firts try - must have the most experienced engineers in F1...

"All teams know.. but they cannot prove it". So it's just suspicion at this point. I'm not thrilled about it, but if one makes declarative statements, they need to back it up with evidence. So far, none has surfaced. Credit to Renault for leading the charge on that.


As for copying, then if they are found legal, then good on them. They exploited a loophole and got a competitive advantage. That's racing in a nutshell. The fall out would be teams requiring more parts to be designed in-house, but there is a balancing act as doing so raises the entry cost for new teams and puts teams like Williams and Haas on even more of a back foot.

Half the discussion on here is speculative. "This person could have won", "someone would have dnf'ed anyway", etc. The great part about racing is the results are what they are and anything is capable of happening up until the finish line. Speculation is just that. It's fun, it's a sport onto itself, but it doesn't change what was.

Very sensible statements... The issue with the perceived “hate” over RP is because they don’t have the fan base of other teams and of course it hurts some of their fans to see a midfield team with a fraction of the resources of their own teams suddenly up there towards the front of the grid... Every team is looking for every loophole in order to get a competitive advantage, they found the best one and were lucky that the car they copied was so far ahead the rest of the competition, that suddenly they are locking the second row for a race.

I can’t remember this amount of hate when Haas showed up with what seemingly was a Ferrari copy also, same business model as RP... Out of nowhere an almost new team in Formula 1 was P5/P6 on the opening race in Australia, continuously fighting in Q3 and on many weekends “best of the rest”... But, all the ones in the top 3 were gaining so much over previous year that it didn’t made as many headlines... If Ferrari and Red Bull would have gotten it right and achieved an increase in performance similar to the one Mercedes did with the W11 we would be hearing half the amount of crying.


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There is no crying, just opinions. Comparing HAAS to RP is not the same - HAAS looked very similar for sure but it was different, this is another level. End just to be sure, if it concerns Mercedes it is called a loophole and if it is connected to Ferrari it is called a cheat?

[El Scorchio]

What an utterly pathetic post! Exactly the sort of post that brings down the quality of a forum.

Albon's DNF could have resulted from the collision as attributed to by Honda although I do acknowledge that they could be mind games. I have no bias of any form towards Albon and thank heavens the stewards had more sense than you. I can see the side of the argument that Hamilton's penalty was harsh although that's a whole new subject of discussion but to say Albon called for the collision or to say that hindsight proves that Albon's result wasn't affected shows your pathetic bias. May be then, you should feel that Vettel shouldn't have been penalised for Baku 2017 as Hamilton was anyway not going to win because of his headrest?

Pathetic!

Very well said.
Some of the Lewis fans are simply blind who can't accept that he can have lapse in judgement.

Perhaps HAM had a lapse in judgment (shouldn’t have defended as hard as he did?) but so did ALB by trying a risky move around the outside at a corner which is tricky enough already against a guy on worn out hards, instead of sitting and picking him and his teammate off easily down the next DRS zones.

I know it’s been done to death but for me it was a racing incident. Neither driver wanted to make contact or was intending to bump wheels as it put them both at risk while coming out of a corner. Unfortunately Albon came off worse (and IMO that’s what led to the penalty) but it could just as easily have been Hamilton. Flip of a coin in those situations.

Dare I say it, if Albon merely ran a bit wide and didn’t spin, there would have been no penalty applied.

[TechAddict]

That is not F1. F1 has almost always had a dominant team. There was few years as exception. With regards to the last 4-5 years, other teams have to do a better job than cheating (Ferrari) or designing cars only good at single type of circuits (hand stand Redbull). If 2 year old Merc (RP) can beat the new Ferrari and Redbull that is not Merc's fault.

F1 is demonstration of bleeding edge of tech + strategy + great driving + some luck.

Great driving is part of F1, not the whole.

It is a "team" "motor" "sport".

F1 might always have had a dominant team, but it almost never ended by other teams doing better, so plesse stop with that statement. Williams in 90, new regs. Ferrari in 00, new regs, red bull 10, new regs. Mercedes would never have caught up with RB if the V8 were still arround, and Vettel would be 10 WDC. No one would have liked that. I will not take anything from Hamilton, he is awsome, I will rater have him breaking all the records than Vettel, but I even sense he would like to compete on a more level playing field.

FIA have tried a lot, but I do not even think budget caps or similar will change much, MB are so fare ahead that they can sleep one year and still win. I love the things they invent (in the interest of the sports innovative history) DAS, FRIC, burning oil. I even like Ferrari for trying so hard to be competitive, OK they did not stay on the right side of the rules, but that does not mean that the fuel flow trick was not inventive and impressive. But DAS could just as easily have been unlegal. Now it isn’t, but as long as we have the tires we have now and more importantly the PU system, no one but MB will be WCC. So 2022 is the best chance in many years. I just think they should look equally at regulating mechanical suspention parts as aero. I think many underestimate how goon MB are in that area. I drive KZ2 gokarts myself, and getting on the throttle early in corners or even on kerbs wins you a lot of laptime.

So, the fact that those other teams that dominated during “X Era” didn’t have the capability to continue that domination afterwards is Mercedes problem? Mercedes is where it’s at because unlike others, they have managed to maintain the status of Top Team regardless of changes in regulations... Everyone has had a chance to catch them and they simply can’t do it... You say that is because of the PU remaining constant? That’s the best thing that can happen to other teams since eventually they all converge and last season, even the likes of Renault and Honda were there or thereabouts with Mercedes in terms of power with Ferrari (although with suspected tactics) was superior... Ferrari had the chance of finally breaking the streak of Mercedes in 2019 (and in my view also in 2018) and didn’t took advantage of it due to their own mistakes.

You talk about 0.010 gaps in Formula 1? Please tell me when that was a reality? I still remember Prost lapping not once, but twice every single other car in the field up to P6 and that was 3 decades ago... There have always been strong / top teams, midfield teams and backmarkers and that won’t change anytime soon (although, with as prohibitive in terms of innovation as the 2022 rules apparently are, this might help).


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For my part I am not saying it’s Mercedes problem, they are doing a perfect job. And I agree that F1 seems to always have a dominant team. FIA must change/stop Mercedes run, and I hope they will in 2022. I have followed F1 for 35 years, and rule changes shifts momentum. And anyone suggesting or hoping that anyone than Mercedes can win before that are fooling themselves. I get that anyone ruting for Mercedes will dislike that, but the sport needs it. It is in fact quite impressive that RB and Ferrari have come so close, but the base that Mercedes started to develop in 2010, were from the start so far ahead that only rule change can break that. Audi had this for years in Le Mans until the organizers made so many disadvantages to their technology that they could not win anymore. And they left. I’m not saying it was wrong because people got tired of seeing Audi win. Same with Mercedes now. And Mercedes can not do anything about it.

[Phil]

It’s not the FIAs job to do anything. The best are those who make the best of the current regulation in place. Mercedes/Hamilton dominating is no worse than Federer dominating Tennis for much of his career, then Rafa, Djokovic or in other sports. I dont get the notion of handicapping the best because they are the best.

[Schuttelberg]

Will Buxton and that new bloke have gone from "Red Bull will give Merc a run and they are genuinely in the fight like they were in Austria" to "God RBR are awful and now it's proved!"

It's unreal how pathetic the coverage is.

[TechAddict]

It’s not the FIAs job to do anything. The best are those who make the best of the current regulation in place. Mercedes/Hamilton dominating is no worse than Federer dominating Tennis for much of his career, then Rafa, Djokovic or in other sports. I dont get the notion of handicapping the best because they are the best.

So you are comparing an F1 car to a tennis racket?
My point is that FIA has always regulated it in the interest of the sport. And they have to again. I’m not sure most people in here would have liked to see Ferrari win 10 WCC in a row if rules were not changed in 2004 and later

By the way. There are lots of series where drivers can compare in similar equipment, but that is anywhere else than F1.

[Phil]

Sport is sport. Winning is all part of being the “best”. I dont believe in artificial handicaps to “spice up the races”. We’ve gone through these periods when Schumacher dominated, then Vettel, now Hamilton. I dont see a problem.

[Manoah2u]

Stroll did outstanding this weekend, VERY curious to the race.
I'm thinking an easy 1-2 for Mercedes, and though i'd love to see a Ferrari at the front, i don't think Ferrari actually is there YET. It SEEMS the new floor is doing great for them, so that's positive but let's see their race pace and let's see if they can keep out of eachother's ways.

As for the race, i think we're in for an absolute treat, minus the P1 and P2 posititions.
There is nobody to challenge the Mercs, they're in a league of their own and it's gonna be an easy P1 for Hamilton (unless we get shock contact at T1 between Bot and Ham).

The RP's are working like clockwork here so quite frankly, i think they're very comfortable P3 and P4.

After that, Ferrari is in a decent place, but even if they can stay out of eachother's ways, they're not 'there yet' so they will not be able to challenge the RP's for P3 and P4 by any means, so the real fight is gonna happen from P5 to p10.

RedBull isn't in the best of shape and Max is really agitated so he's now in a place that things are gonna go to his head instead of keep calm. I'm expecting a fight between the Ferrari's and Verstappen and i'm afraid that it's gonna end in tears. I am keeping a keen eye on LeClerc and Verstappen.

Mclaren's race pace i think is actually better than the Ferrari's and the RedBulls so they're gonna be right in there and in the long haul, i think they're actually gonna be faster and will make a genuine chance for P5 and P6. Since there are Ferrari's in front of them, i think that Norris is the one that's gonna get the candy, as I'm expecting Sainz to be smart enough to do engage the Ferrari's, but be much more careful to not accidentaly take out or hit his future employer's cars, so Norris is gonna benefit from that and get ahead enough to end up in front of Sainz even if in the end Sainz might be a bit faster on race pace.

My 'finish' results glass ball would be more or less this then, if no major incidents occur:

P1 Hamilton
P2 Bottas
P3 Stroll
P4 Perez
P5 Norris
P6 Vettel
P7 Sainz
P8 LeClerc
P9 Verstappen
P10 Ricciardo
P11 Gasly
P12 Ocon
P13 Albon
P14 Raikkonen
P15 Kvyat
P16 Russell
P17 Latifi
P18 Magnussen
P19 Giovanazzi
P20 Grosjean

However, should a clash between f.e. Leclerc and Verstappen occur, then we have two DNF's, paired to a probable Safety Car situation,
which would put Norris into a fight with Perez. I think Seb is gonna get into a fight with Sainz. Albon will disappoint and not even make top 10.

[dans79]

It’s not the FIAs job to do anything. The best are those who make the best of the current regulation in place. Mercedes/Hamilton dominating is no worse than Federer dominating Tennis for much of his career, then Rafa, Djokovic or in other sports. I dont get the notion of handicapping the best because they are the best.

I attribute it to upbringing, and modern world politics.

[MtthsMlw]

It’s not the FIAs job to do anything. The best are those who make the best of the current regulation in place. Mercedes/Hamilton dominating is no worse than Federer dominating Tennis for much of his career, then Rafa, Djokovic or in other sports. I dont get the notion of handicapping the best because they are the best.

So you are comparing an F1 car to a tennis racket?
My point is that FIA has always regulated it in the interest of the sport. And they have to again. I’m not sure most people in here would have liked to see Ferrari win 10 WCC in a row if rules were not changed in 2004 and later

By the way. There are lots of series where drivers can compare in similar equipment, but that is anywhere else than F1.

But how? I think every reg change you throw at them will backfire as others cope even worse with it.
Maybe the budget cap with reduced windtunnel/cfd time the better you perform will do the trick.
Realistically I still see them ahead after 2022.

[Schuttelberg]

Sport is sport. Winning is all part of being the “best”. I dont believe in artificial handicaps to “spice up the races”. We’ve gone through these periods when Schumacher dominated, then Vettel, now Hamilton. I dont see a problem.

I wonder if you would have shared that notion if the shoe was on the other foot. I am not in on artificially handicapping the Mercedes team by having reverse grids and all that sort of nonsense. I think that's bullish!t! I want someone to do a better job and beat them.

But this comparison to the "Schumacher days" and the "Vettel days" does not float. Schumacher had two, at best three such years and Vettel two. The Mercedes juggernaut has been on for seven years and it will be eight next year. As a fan, there's nothing to watch even if Schumacher or Vettel or Hamilton or anyone is endlessly winning.

At this present moment, I have no problem with 2020 but its horrendously idiotic to call 2021 and 2020 separate championships. The cars are frozen. We will basically see Hamilton vs Bottas for two years for the championship and I don't think as a fan of the sport first, I'm interested in seeing that crap. It's this sort of thing that has pushed away so much of F1's fan following.

[Schuttelberg]

It’s not the FIAs job to do anything. The best are those who make the best of the current regulation in place. Mercedes/Hamilton dominating is no worse than Federer dominating Tennis for much of his career, then Rafa, Djokovic or in other sports. I dont get the notion of handicapping the best because they are the best.

So you are comparing an F1 car to a tennis racket?
My point is that FIA has always regulated it in the interest of the sport. And they have to again. I’m not sure most people in here would have liked to see Ferrari win 10 WCC in a row if rules were not changed in 2004 and later

By the way. There are lots of series where drivers can compare in similar equipment, but that is anywhere else than F1.

But how? I think every reg change you throw at them will backfire as others cope even worse with it.
Maybe the budget cap with reduced windtunnel/cfd time the better you perform will do the trick.
Realistically I still see them ahead after 2022.

All good runs end. This also will. The agenda is not to bring Mercedes down. The agenda is to have a sport where there is competition and fans see some racing again. Knowing who is going to be world champion a year in advance is not sport, nor show. It's a farce.