[ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
User avatar
SiLo
91
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:09 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

The FIA ruling whilst obviously annoying a lot of people, does make sense (at least, their explanations, maybe not their guestimate punishment)
  • RP bought brake duct designs from Merc as they were allowed to in 2019.
  • They used those designs on the front of the car during 2019 and iterated them.
  • They did not run the rear designs in 2019.
  • They then picked up the 2019 designs and put them on the 2020 car (no iterations) BEFORE the rule change date, but AFTER the rule change was announced.
  • Prior to testing for the 2020 season, Mercedes sent a set of rear brake ducts to RP after RP feared their own builds would not be ready in time.
  • RP read brake ducts get built in time for testing, the Mercedes parts do not get used
  • RP iterate the 2019 rear brake duct designs from Mercedes a small amount and start the season with them.
Obviously at this point Renault gets wind of the brake ducts, lodges their complaint etc etc.

Looking at the rules, it's easy to see why RP did what they did. They are ambiguous and poorly written, especially to cover a transition period for a listed/non-listed part.

I think the FIA has tried to make everyone happy here. Renault because they get their protest upheld and RP are docked points that would be valuable against them in the WCC, and RP, because the fine was minimal, the points will hurt but they get to keep using the part.

I believe the reason for the FIA not banning the part and forcing RP to make new brake ducts is simple, and has been said multiple times already. How do they unlearn what they already know? It's impossible and they would likely design something that is almost identical.

Did they knowingly use the listed part design for 2020? Yes. Did the rules state they couldn't because they purchased the designs legally the year prior? No.

The only people we should be annoyed with is the FIA for writing, once again, poorly worded rules. F1 teams working in grey areas is a tale as old as time, and RP have done it here.

Why the fuss from the other teams? Well from the first days of testing they could see RP was quick, and was a threat to their WCC hopes, and in turn, WCC prize money. Renault are the only ones that had something they could actually protest, all the other teams could only moan publicly about it. Now the protest has been upheld, and all those teams wanted a harsher punishment they have something they can suddenly get in on, so they are damn well going to do it because beating them in a court room is cheaper than beating them on track.
Felipe Baby!

User avatar
Racer X
8
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:04 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

Thank you SiLo very much appreciated'.
SHAKE N BAKE

User avatar
MtthsMlw
852
Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:38 pm
Location: Germany

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

Both Ferrari and Renault going ahead with appealing the decision while McLaren pulled out.
Almost certain that RP will appeal as well, nothing official yet from Williams.

User avatar
Racer X
8
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:04 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

William' will appeal the appeal along with Racing Point so that they can bring in Merc Parts next season too.... Haha...
SHAKE N BAKE

User avatar
Wouter
385
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post



User avatar
Sieper
109
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

Racer X wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:17 am
William' will appeal the appeal along with Racing Point so that they can bring in Merc Parts next season too.... Haha...
Well, that is what the ruling Will be about.

Let’s be frank, RP got the parts they needed and the cad files and they reengineerd their car from that. “We got the drawing to prove it”. Sure you have, but that proves nothing. The excuse is the photo copy story. They photocopied the whole car and made drawings from that. If that excuse is accepted as true it does mean all customer teams can copy the works car (if both parties want that) from now on. Not for next year as the chassis is frozen, not 2022 as totally new cars will be made but from 2023 onwards. Yes, certainly. Even the listed parts. And if it were really possible to do so it would be nice to see a Alpha tauri copied mercedes W13.

FIA will have to decide on the future of F1 car design. In fact, it is unfair as 1 team is already doing it (proven illegally) but the others can not as they complied with the rules.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

User avatar
El Scorchio
21
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:41 am

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

I said this on the RP20 thread too but I cannot believe Ferrari have the nerve and the bare faced cheek to appeal on the grounds that the punishment was too lenient, given what happened with their engine deal.

User avatar
Big Tea
124
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

Sieper wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:17 am
Racer X wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:17 am
William' will appeal the appeal along with Racing Point so that they can bring in Merc Parts next season too.... Haha...
Well, that is what the ruling Will be about.

Let’s be frank, RP got the parts they needed and the cad files and they reengineerd their car from that. “We got the drawing to prove it”. Sure you have, but that proves nothing. The excuse is the photo copy story. They photocopied the whole car and made drawings from that. If that excuse is accepted as true it does mean all customer teams can copy the works car (if both parties want that) from now on. Not for next year as the chassis is frozen, not 2022 as totally new cars will be made but from 2023 onwards. Yes, certainly. Even the listed parts. And if it were really possible to do so it would be nice to see a Alpha tauri copied mercedes W13.

FIA will have to decide on the future of F1 car design. In fact, it is unfair as 1 team is already doing it (proven illegally) but the others can not as they complied with the rules.
They will almost certainly bring in a % rule covering how much cam be copied, so look for some real Frankenstein cars soon
I am very much in favour of filtered water. Preferably passed through a brewery

User avatar
Wouter
385
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

So cute. This was yesterday.
I hope Nico can race this weekend one more time.


User avatar
Wouter
385
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post


User avatar
Phil
425
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:22 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

Sieper wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:17 am
The excuse is the photo copy story. They photocopied the whole car and made drawings from that. If that excuse is accepted as true it does mean all customer teams can copy the works car (if both parties want that) from now on. Not for next year as the chassis is frozen, not 2022 as totally new cars will be made but from 2023 onwards. Yes, certainly. Even the listed parts. And if it were really possible to do so it would be nice to see a Alpha tauri copied mercedes W13.
I dont see the issue about copying the “benchmark”. Every team does it, has done it. F-duct, double diffusor, high-rake etc etc.

Copying the whole car or not - why not if it gets them the results? The only issue with copying a car from last year is that you will always be behind the curve and arguably, might not understand the concept like if you had come up with it yourself and done the research to know its potential and limits.

If you want to win, copying something that will be outdated the next year wont work. But it will help to make everyone more competitve.

It will also work in years where the regulations only change slightly and even an outdated car could be competitive.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

User avatar
Sieper
109
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

The B team does not need to win. Merely giving extra strategic options to the A team will suffice. Toto has even bluntly stated this was a important consideration. Now this has been found to be illegal but still allowed to stand (with a fine for the B team some points reduction for the B team, and a reprimande each race, which has no consequences). It is very beneficial to both teams indeed. But illegal and detrimental to other teams.

For me a better punishment would have been put some weight in the RP so that they are let’s say 0,4 second slower per lap. You would have to determine the weight on the basis of how much you credit the illegally obtained part for the laptime RP won this year. That way RP is racing around on a position they are legally allowed to also fit the rest of the next 1,5 season that we use this chassis. That would be much more fair to the other competitors, who are not running illegal parts.you cannot unlearn what has been learned so until end of this chassis usage the weight would have to be retained.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

User avatar
siskue2005
183
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 8:50 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

Sieper wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 11:17 am
Racer X wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:17 am
William' will appeal the appeal along with Racing Point so that they can bring in Merc Parts next season too.... Haha...
Well, that is what the ruling Will be about.

Let’s be frank, RP got the parts they needed and the cad files and they reengineerd their car from that. “We got the drawing to prove it”. Sure you have, but that proves nothing. The excuse is the photo copy story. They photocopied the whole car and made drawings from that. If that excuse is accepted as true it does mean all customer teams can copy the works car (if both parties want that) from now on. Not for next year as the chassis is frozen, not 2022 as totally new cars will be made but from 2023 onwards. Yes, certainly. Even the listed parts. And if it were really possible to do so it would be nice to see a Alpha tauri copied mercedes W13.

FIA will have to decide on the future of F1 car design. In fact, it is unfair as 1 team is already doing it (proven illegally) but the others can not as they complied with the rules.
Teams have been doing that for some years now
Image
Image
Image

User avatar
Big Tea
124
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

Sieper wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:40 am
The B team does not need to win. Merely giving extra strategic options to the A team will suffice. Toto has even bluntly stated this was a important consideration. Now this has been found to be illegal but still allowed to stand (with a fine for the B team some points reduction for the B team, and a reprimande each race, which has no consequences). It is very beneficial to both teams indeed. But illegal and detrimental to other teams.

For me a better punishment would have been put some weight in the RP so that they are let’s say 0,4 second slower per lap. You would have to determine the weight on the basis of how much you credit the illegally obtained part for the laptime RP won this year. That way RP is racing around on a position they are legally allowed to also fit the rest of the next 1,5 season that we use this chassis. That would be much more fair to the other competitors, who are not running illegal parts.you cannot unlearn what has been learned so until end of this chassis usage the weight would have to be retained.
If they banned them, all it would take is a couple of design engineers to sit down with a machine not even on the network, a clean screen in their design program and make a pattern from their own heads ( or notebooks the previous evening ) and they have 'new' working ducts with slight differences and complete traceability to unique design. That would just make all parties look foolish. I think they are doing their best to wave it away and let the dust settle.

Look, they have had a large fine and docked points, we are on the case, don't worry we are tough
I am very much in favour of filtered water. Preferably passed through a brewery

User avatar
Phil
425
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 3:22 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

Post

Sieper wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:40 am
The B team does not need to win. Merely giving extra strategic options to the A team will suffice. Toto has even bluntly stated this was a important consideration. Now this has been found to be illegal but still allowed to stand (with a fine for the B team some points reduction for the B team, and a reprimande each race, which has no consequences). It is very beneficial to both teams indeed. But illegal and detrimental to other teams.
This is nothing new. Heck, RedBull legally owns two teams and have way more power than either Ferrari or Mercedes have influence over their customer teams.

Technically, only RedBull has an A and B team. Mercedes and Ferrari only have customer teams. I wouldn't expect Mercedes be able to phone up, lets say Racing Point, during a race and say "hey, Ferrari coming up, make sure you stay out and cost them more time". This would be very bad image wise too.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter