With tyres in F1, it`s not so simple ...F1Krof wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:26 pmI don't think though it's the matter of just ripping some downforce and you won't overheat the tires. Most of the time, it's the sliding (cause by lower downforce levels) that cause those lateral forces to destroy the tires rather than longitudinal forces generated by higher downforce. In fact, come to think about it, more downforce would have helped to mitigate the problem.
Hi GPR-A!GPR-A wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:10 pm
They can rip a bit of downforce off, as their competitors are miles behind and avoid putting so much load in tyres and still be ahead! Induce a bit of understeer and go slightly slower through the corners, but it would allow them a bit more straight line speed, which they would anyway do in Spa and Monza. That is much more easier to do, while they build better solution to better manage the tyres with their full downforce package, if the speculation of that article is indeed true. I have stopped believing some of these hollywood paparazzi guys, masquerading as F1 journalists, long ago.
In the recent debrief, Shovlin just says they were slower as they needed to manage the tyres, but doesn't actually go in detail about what exact car problem made them slower.
Would removing down force not just increase slip angles and not only ware the rubber but (friction) add more heat?atanatizante wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:22 pmHi GPR-A!GPR-A wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:10 pm
They can rip a bit of downforce off, as their competitors are miles behind and avoid putting so much load in tyres and still be ahead! Induce a bit of understeer and go slightly slower through the corners, but it would allow them a bit more straight line speed, which they would anyway do in Spa and Monza. That is much more easier to do, while they build better solution to better manage the tyres with their full downforce package, if the speculation of that article is indeed true. I have stopped believing some of these hollywood paparazzi guys, masquerading as F1 journalists, long ago.
In the recent debrief, Shovlin just says they were slower as they needed to manage the tyres, but doesn't actually go in detail about what exact car problem made them slower.
Generally, I like your posts and this time you are right: my above statements are all speculations ...
But I have to remind you that it`s not so simple to trim some DF levels at the back coz you need to compensate at the front axle in order to get a balanced car ... unfortunately, this action will also trim diffuser DF levels which will decrease further their rear DF levels ...
So having to change their optimum aero platform this could lead to a negative domino effect, don`t you think? ...
It's not exactly that simple, because everything in f1 has 2 dozen inputs, and their all interrelated.Big Tea wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:38 pmWould removing down force not just increase slip angles and not only ware the rubber but (friction) add more heat?atanatizante wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:22 pmHi GPR-A!GPR-A wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:10 pm
They can rip a bit of downforce off, as their competitors are miles behind and avoid putting so much load in tyres and still be ahead! Induce a bit of understeer and go slightly slower through the corners, but it would allow them a bit more straight line speed, which they would anyway do in Spa and Monza. That is much more easier to do, while they build better solution to better manage the tyres with their full downforce package, if the speculation of that article is indeed true. I have stopped believing some of these hollywood paparazzi guys, masquerading as F1 journalists, long ago.
In the recent debrief, Shovlin just says they were slower as they needed to manage the tyres, but doesn't actually go in detail about what exact car problem made them slower.
Generally, I like your posts and this time you are right: my above statements are all speculations ...
But I have to remind you that it`s not so simple to trim some DF levels at the back coz you need to compensate at the front axle in order to get a balanced car ... unfortunately, this action will also trim diffuser DF levels which will decrease further their rear DF levels ...
So having to change their optimum aero platform this could lead to a negative domino effect, don`t you think? ...
Rear tyres more so, which are where the damage was last week?
But would not decreasing camber increase the surface area in contact with the track and make it worse?dans79 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:47 pmIt's not exactly that simple, because everything in f1 has 2 dozen inputs, and their all interrelated.Big Tea wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:38 pmWould removing down force not just increase slip angles and not only ware the rubber but (friction) add more heat?atanatizante wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:22 pm
Hi GPR-A!
Generally, I like your posts and this time you are right: my above statements are all speculations ...
But I have to remind you that it`s not so simple to trim some DF levels at the back coz you need to compensate at the front axle in order to get a balanced car ... unfortunately, this action will also trim diffuser DF levels which will decrease further their rear DF levels ...
So having to change their optimum aero platform this could lead to a negative domino effect, don`t you think? ...
Rear tyres more so, which are where the damage was last week?
For example you could counteract the the increased slip angle by decreasing camper and increasing the size of the contact patch. Then you tell the drivers easier though the turns because they will be faster on the straits.
in simplistic terms increasing the contact patch means more area to do the same amount of work. In other words less energy/heat put into each cm^2 of tread. I say simplistic terms because the size of the contact patch is not constant throughout the lap, as it changes under the varying loads applied to the tire.Big Tea wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:50 pmBut would not decreasing camber increase the surface area in contact with the track and make it worse?dans79 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:47 pmIt's not exactly that simple, because everything in f1 has 2 dozen inputs, and their all interrelated.
For example you could counteract the the increased slip angle by decreasing camper and increasing the size of the contact patch. Then you tell the drivers easier though the turns because they will be faster on the straits.
I was thinking more area more friction surface more heat and 'straighter' side walls steeper angle of load etc? so more deflection creating more heat and more stress??dans79 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:55 pmin simplistic terms increasing the contact patch means more area to do the same amount of work. In other words less energy/heat put into each cm^2 of tread. I say simplistic terms because the size of the contact patch is not constant throughout the lap, as it changes under the varying loads applied to the tire.Big Tea wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:50 pmBut would not decreasing camber increase the surface area in contact with the track and make it worse?dans79 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:47 pm
It's not exactly that simple, because everything in f1 has 2 dozen inputs, and their all interrelated.
For example you could counteract the the increased slip angle by decreasing camper and increasing the size of the contact patch. Then you tell the drivers easier though the turns because they will be faster on the straits.
Yes, but as I mentioned earlier that's where the drivers come in. You tell them to take it easy in the turns, because just because the grip is available doesn't mean they need to use it all. Easy being a relative term, because we are talking about minutiae.Hoffman900 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:59 pmIncreasing the contact patch increase grip and thus more work is performed.
True, but that usually leads to graining and that's something the drivers can handle because it normally only lasts for a few laps. Graining can be really bad, but it usually requires a horrendously bad set-up.Hoffman900 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:17 pmDecrease grip and you may increase sliding, but you'll minimize the load.
Absolutely.dans79 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:23 pmTrue, but that usually leads to graining and that's something the drivers can handle because it normally only lasts for a few laps. Graining can be really bad, but it usually requires a horrendously bad set-up.Hoffman900 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:17 pmDecrease grip and you may increase sliding, but you'll minimize the load.