FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

[dans79]

Maybe that is also why there are now rumours around this. The RP can continue to race, but it will get reprimanded every race. FIA (not only there to serve Mercedes and its customers, the other teams should also not have to compete against a (partly) illegal car) is clearly not happy. Maybe feels that cloning the car (although partially within the letter of the rulings, but also partially not, proven already) goes against the sporting regulations and say, OK, if you wan to play the game like that then lets go the other way, no more qualy mode. It is not unprecedented, FIA does change ruling to break periods of dominance. Merc has been dominant in qualy ever since 2014.

A governing body (for any sport) should not be manipulating the outcome. It's sole purposes is to regulate the actions of the competitors based on the rules currently in place. If competitors fine loopholes in the rules then close them for the next season.

The type of the dirty politics manipulation you are suggesting is disgusting. If the FIA is actually going to carry on like that, then it doesn't deserve to exist imo. I'd even be willing to donate a non trivial amount of money to combat this type of garbage in court.

[63l8qrrfy6]

Auto brake bias was deemed a driver aid and an advantage over drivers changing it manually.

Oops, I misremembered, sorry about that.

Actually you did help prove my point to some extent.
Some may see such a 'smart mode' as a driver aid and they would be completely in their right to do so unless FIA clearly defines what can and cannot be done. The reality is there is too little time and it is too comples to do so effectively by 2021 let alone by Spa.

[basti313]

Well, the problem is that every racing series needs some sort of BOP. In Formula 1 the BOP in the past were frequent rule changes and restrictions to top inventions. Examples are the double dif, blown dif, FRIC and F-Duct. They could have fun for one or two seasons, then this was restricted and the field was leveled again.
Having one engine far ahead of the rest is something which works for some years, but could put F1 into the grave if the same dominance is taken to the new rules in 2022. To me it is clear that you can say goodbye to engine manufacturers like Renault or Honda, maybe even Ferrari if there is no chance in winning after 22 and with the new rules leveling aero the engine becomes even more a differentiation. Then the Black Mercedes can run against the Pink, Orange and White Mercedes...

But I think the proposal is nonsense. We know that Mercedes can run higher modes for longer time than the others. So restricting the modes will hurt the others and favor Mercedes. The worst would be to restrict it to maybe two modes like race and harvesting, which would put a big difference in HP on the engines. Yes, one can say Merc did a better job, but this will be just a nonsense competition in the end.

I think that a general HP limit would be better. Highest mode = 1000BHP or similar. Then Merc can still profit from its good development by running this mode longer and on the other side we do not see the current downsides with a strong qualifying benefit and missing overtakes.

But there are 3 teams running this engine (soon 4) and they are not places 1-2-3. In fact one of the teams is right down the blunt end. I think far too much emphasis is put on Merc having the best engine. I agree it is the best engine and the best package, but there is far more to them being the dominant team because they were when Ferrari had the best engine.

It is being used as an excuse by other teams

That is not really a strong line of argumentation if one team has just suddenly come on the grid (RP) with a car so akin the works team it could have been a clone. Then what use does talking about a total package still have. In fact, the works team has had place 1 and 2 every race so far and place 3 and 4 are very much up for grabs by the customer team that has a works team akin car as was shown by a reserve driver stepping in and putting it there after 2 weekends. Williams have (which I feel to their merit) tried to keep designing their own car to some extent. A car that f.e. in Hungary was on P3 at the beginning of stint 2 in Q2. Engine does very much. Team 4 (McLaren) will also be a the pointy end of the grid next year with that Merc qualy mode. They have been coming closer every year on their on merit already.

Maybe that is also why there are now rumours around this. The RP can continue to race, but it will get reprimanded every race. FIA (not only there to serve Mercedes and its customers, the other teams should also not have to compete against a (partly) illegal car) is clearly not happy. Maybe feels that cloning the car (although partially within the letter of the rulings, but also partially not, proven already) goes against the sporting regulations and say, OK, if you wan to play the game like that then lets go the other way, no more qualy mode. It is not unprecedented, FIA does change ruling to break periods of dominance. Merc has been dominant in qualy ever since 2014.

I do not really think it has to do with the copy. If you look in general how the grid was resorted, the engine power changes might do more than the copy. If I assume that Merc did not loose as Honda and Renault, Ferrari lost substantially, then FI just leapfrogged Ferrari, Renault and a bit the McLaren. RedBull has a strong car, the AT is nowhere. So my assumption is that only RedBull made a big jump in aero, the rest of the reordering is just engine effects.

Maybe it is more last season/Ferrari:
Remember how easily two of the worst loosers (this is ment partially positive, I like them) on this planet took the defeat in Monza and Spa. Allison knew exactly what Ferrari was doing as their past TD and with the blistering speed in Monza and Spa Wolff and Allison knew that this is the last nail to get rid of Ferrari for the next 5 years.
Now that Ferrari is suddenly policing with the FIA this might be the counter attack and I have to revise my opinion above...maybe the single mode really levels the engines...

Williams is for me the point that proves the superior engine: Look at their development this year. They were nowhere last year and the car this year is awful like last year. There is no changes in their aero. But now with the other engines turned down they suddenly drive in Q2???

[El Scorchio]

But there are 3 teams running this engine (soon 4) and they are not places 1-2-3. In fact one of the teams is right down the blunt end. I think far too much emphasis is put on Merc having the best engine. I agree it is the best engine and the best package, but there is far more to them being the dominant team because they were when Ferrari had the best engine.

It is being used as an excuse by other teams

That is not really a strong line of argumentation if one team has just suddenly come on the grid (RP) with a car so akin the works team it could have been a clone. Then what use does talking about a total package still have. In fact, the works team has had place 1 and 2 every race so far and place 3 and 4 are very much up for grabs by the customer team that has a works team akin car as was shown by a reserve driver stepping in and putting it there after 2 weekends. Williams have (which I feel to their merit) tried to keep designing their own car to some extent. A car that f.e. in Hungary was on P3 at the beginning of stint 2 in Q2. Engine does very much. Team 4 (McLaren) will also be a the pointy end of the grid next year with that Merc qualy mode. They have been coming closer every year on their on merit already.

And actually the point you made about the FIA and Ferrari 'policing' the others is quite interesting. It just so happens that THIS season is when they are really stuck and struggling for power and THIS season is when the FIA want to do something about engine power in general to try and lessen the Ferrari rivals power.... Hmmmmmm

Maybe that is also why there are now rumours around this. The RP can continue to race, but it will get reprimanded every race. FIA (not only there to serve Mercedes and its customers, the other teams should also not have to compete against a (partly) illegal car) is clearly not happy. Maybe feels that cloning the car (although partially within the letter of the rulings, but also partially not, proven already) goes against the sporting regulations and say, OK, if you wan to play the game like that then lets go the other way, no more qualy mode. It is not unprecedented, FIA does change ruling to break periods of dominance. Merc has been dominant in qualy ever since 2014.

I do not really think it has to do with the copy. If you look in general how the grid was resorted, the engine power changes might do more than the copy. If I assume that Merc did not loose as Honda and Renault, Ferrari lost substantially, then FI just leapfrogged Ferrari, Renault and a bit the McLaren. RedBull has a strong car, the AT is nowhere. So my assumption is that only RedBull made a big jump in aero, the rest of the reordering is just engine effects.

Maybe it is more last season/Ferrari:
Remember how easily two of the worst loosers (this is ment partially positive, I like them) on this planet took the defeat in Monza and Spa. Allison knew exactly what Ferrari was doing as their past TD and with the blistering speed in Monza and Spa Wolff and Allison knew that this is the last nail to get rid of Ferrari for the next 5 years.
Now that Ferrari is suddenly policing with the FIA this might be the counter attack and I have to revise my opinion above...maybe the single mode really levels the engines...

Williams is for me the point that proves the superior engine: Look at their development this year. They were nowhere last year and the car this year is awful like last year. There is no changes in their aero. But now with the other engines turned down they suddenly drive in Q2???

But Williams have had the Mercedes engines for YEARS and gone from almost best of the rest in 2014 to right down to the bottom of the pack for the last couple of seasons, with a slight renaissance this season. (While Merc have stayed top) That alone (combined with RP being very average for several years) tells you it's about way more than just the engine or what modes you can put it into. They are only really ahead of HAAS and Alpha who previously had..... Ferrari engines, so it's probably more a factor of Ferrari powered cars losing their advantage due the the new directives than anything else.

But actually you make an interesting point. If as part of Ferrari's 'secret deal' they are 'policing' engines with the FIA is it just a coincidence that THIS year is when they themselves are really stuck and struggling for power, and THIS is the season a decision comes to the fore about cutting engine power, some thing which would have a direct negative impact on all Ferrari's competitors but not Ferrari? Hmmmm....

[Sieper]

Maybe that is also why there are now rumours around this. The RP can continue to race, but it will get reprimanded every race. FIA (not only there to serve Mercedes and its customers, the other teams should also not have to compete against a (partly) illegal car) is clearly not happy. Maybe feels that cloning the car (although partially within the letter of the rulings, but also partially not, proven already) goes against the sporting regulations and say, OK, if you wan to play the game like that then lets go the other way, no more qualy mode. It is not unprecedented, FIA does change ruling to break periods of dominance. Merc has been dominant in qualy ever since 2014.

A governing body (for any sport) should not be manipulating the outcome. It's sole purposes is to regulate the actions of the competitors based on the rules currently in place. If competitors fine loopholes in the rules then close them for the next season.

The type of the dirty politics manipulation you are suggesting is disgusting. If the FIA is actually going to carry on like that, then it doesn't deserve to exist imo. I'd even be willing to donate a non trivial amount of money to combat this type of garbage in court.

We don’t know if that is the case, it is just me guessing at possible motivation. Similar things have happened in the past though. That is what leads me on to that possibility.

But, In fact, if you look at the wording of the tweet today it seems that other teams might have built a case and presented that to FIA on what is happening with these qualy modes.

[basti313]

That is not really a strong line of argumentation if one team has just suddenly come on the grid (RP) with a car so akin the works team it could have been a clone. Then what use does talking about a total package still have. In fact, the works team has had place 1 and 2 every race so far and place 3 and 4 are very much up for grabs by the customer team that has a works team akin car as was shown by a reserve driver stepping in and putting it there after 2 weekends. Williams have (which I feel to their merit) tried to keep designing their own car to some extent. A car that f.e. in Hungary was on P3 at the beginning of stint 2 in Q2. Engine does very much. Team 4 (McLaren) will also be a the pointy end of the grid next year with that Merc qualy mode. They have been coming closer every year on their on merit already.

And actually the point you made about the FIA and Ferrari 'policing' the others is quite interesting. It just so happens that THIS season is when they are really stuck and struggling for power and THIS season is when the FIA want to do something about engine power in general to try and lessen the Ferrari rivals power.... Hmmmmmm

Maybe that is also why there are now rumours around this. The RP can continue to race, but it will get reprimanded every race. FIA (not only there to serve Mercedes and its customers, the other teams should also not have to compete against a (partly) illegal car) is clearly not happy. Maybe feels that cloning the car (although partially within the letter of the rulings, but also partially not, proven already) goes against the sporting regulations and say, OK, if you wan to play the game like that then lets go the other way, no more qualy mode. It is not unprecedented, FIA does change ruling to break periods of dominance. Merc has been dominant in qualy ever since 2014.

I do not really think it has to do with the copy. If you look in general how the grid was resorted, the engine power changes might do more than the copy. If I assume that Merc did not loose as Honda and Renault, Ferrari lost substantially, then FI just leapfrogged Ferrari, Renault and a bit the McLaren. RedBull has a strong car, the AT is nowhere. So my assumption is that only RedBull made a big jump in aero, the rest of the reordering is just engine effects.

Maybe it is more last season/Ferrari:
Remember how easily two of the worst loosers (this is ment partially positive, I like them) on this planet took the defeat in Monza and Spa. Allison knew exactly what Ferrari was doing as their past TD and with the blistering speed in Monza and Spa Wolff and Allison knew that this is the last nail to get rid of Ferrari for the next 5 years.
Now that Ferrari is suddenly policing with the FIA this might be the counter attack and I have to revise my opinion above...maybe the single mode really levels the engines...

Williams is for me the point that proves the superior engine: Look at their development this year. They were nowhere last year and the car this year is awful like last year. There is no changes in their aero. But now with the other engines turned down they suddenly drive in Q2???

But Williams have had the Mercedes engines for YEARS and gone from almost best of the rest in 2014 to right down to the bottom of the pack for the last couple of seasons, with a slight renaissance this season. (While Merc have stayed top) That alone (combined with RP being very average for several years) tells you it's about way more than just the engine or what modes you can put it into. They are only really ahead of HAAS and Alpha who previously had..... Ferrari engines, so it's probably more a factor of Ferrari powered cars losing their advantage due the the new directives than anything else.

But actually you make an interesting point. If as part of Ferrari's 'secret deal' they are 'policing' engines with the FIA is it just a coincidence that THIS year is when they themselves are really stuck and struggling for power, and THIS is the season a decision comes to the fore about cutting engine power, some thing which would have a direct negative impact on all Ferrari's competitors but not Ferrari? Hmmmm....

Regarding Williams, yes, I also think it is more than the engine and their car is so crappy that even the best engine does not help. Now they got across Haas and Alpha who have better cars, but a bad engine.

Regarding Ferrari: I think it is good to level the engines now. We are running into a token system, even more restricted engine development. It does not make sense to cement the old development benefits.

[1158]

But actually you make an interesting point. If as part of Ferrari's 'secret deal' they are 'policing' engines with the FIA is it just a coincidence that THIS year is when they themselves are really stuck and struggling for power, and THIS is the season a decision comes to the fore about cutting engine power, some thing which would have a direct negative impact on all Ferrari's competitors but not Ferrari? Hmmmm....

This had crossed my mind. I wonder if Ferrari has an idea of what teams are doing for Q mode and went to the FIA as part of their agreement and said this is how the Q mode works and it's outside the intentions of the regulations. Q mode, and indeed all modes, should be banned since it is impossible to police/prove this.

Just speculation though

[63l8qrrfy6]

We don’t know if that is the case, it is just me guessing at possible motivation. Similar things have happened in the past though. That is what leads me on to that possibility.

But, In fact, if you look at the wording of the tweet today it seems that other teams might have built a case and presented that to FIA on what is happening with these qualy modes.

If that is the case they should go take the engines apart like they did with Ferrari, then take measures, do secret agreements and whatnot.

[El Scorchio]

I do not really think it has to do with the copy. If you look in general how the grid was resorted, the engine power changes might do more than the copy. If I assume that Merc did not loose as Honda and Renault, Ferrari lost substantially, then FI just leapfrogged Ferrari, Renault and a bit the McLaren. RedBull has a strong car, the AT is nowhere. So my assumption is that only RedBull made a big jump in aero, the rest of the reordering is just engine effects.

Maybe it is more last season/Ferrari:
Remember how easily two of the worst loosers (this is ment partially positive, I like them) on this planet took the defeat in Monza and Spa. Allison knew exactly what Ferrari was doing as their past TD and with the blistering speed in Monza and Spa Wolff and Allison knew that this is the last nail to get rid of Ferrari for the next 5 years.
Now that Ferrari is suddenly policing with the FIA this might be the counter attack and I have to revise my opinion above...maybe the single mode really levels the engines...

Williams is for me the point that proves the superior engine: Look at their development this year. They were nowhere last year and the car this year is awful like last year. There is no changes in their aero. But now with the other engines turned down they suddenly drive in Q2???

But Williams have had the Mercedes engines for YEARS and gone from almost best of the rest in 2014 to right down to the bottom of the pack for the last couple of seasons, with a slight renaissance this season. (While Merc have stayed top) That alone (combined with RP being very average for several years) tells you it's about way more than just the engine or what modes you can put it into. They are only really ahead of HAAS and Alpha who previously had..... Ferrari engines, so it's probably more a factor of Ferrari powered cars losing their advantage due the the new directives than anything else.

But actually you make an interesting point. If as part of Ferrari's 'secret deal' they are 'policing' engines with the FIA is it just a coincidence that THIS year is when they themselves are really stuck and struggling for power, and THIS is the season a decision comes to the fore about cutting engine power, some thing which would have a direct negative impact on all Ferrari's competitors but not Ferrari? Hmmmm....

Regarding Williams, yes, I also think it is more than the engine and their car is so crappy that even the best engine does not help. Now they got across Haas and Alpha who have better cars, but a bad engine.

Regarding Ferrari: I think it is good to level the engines now. We are running into a token system, even more restricted engine development. It does not make sense to cement the old development benefits.

It's not Williams' fault that Haas and Alpha are paying the price for their engine supplier getting caught out doing something they shouldn't have. Why should they be punished themselves because of it? They now have a better engine. Good luck to them. They've suffered enough over the last few years haven't they?

I think it's only good to level the engine NOW if you're looking at it from Ferrari's point of view rather than an objective point of view. Why not last year when Ferrari were fastest and taking a string of poles with their extra power?

If you look at it another way it absolutely makes sense to cement the old developments benefits so they actually serve a punishment for what they did, and now have to try extra hard to catch up. Again, it's no-one else's fault they got caught out doing something they shouldn't so why should everyone else have to neuter themselves and dance to Ferrari's tune just because they are suffering the consequences?

[Sieper]

We don’t know if that is the case, it is just me guessing at possible motivation. Similar things have happened in the past though. That is what leads me on to that possibility.

But, In fact, if you look at the wording of the tweet today it seems that other teams might have built a case and presented that to FIA on what is happening with these qualy modes.

If that is the case they should go take the engines apart like they did with Ferrari, then take measures, do secret agreements and whatnot.

Perhaps they will, but perhaps they are unwilling to first wait until the season is over. And then conveniently catch someone redhanded with 5 kg more fuel than declared on the very last race, putting the nail in the coffin for any defenses.

[dans79]

But, In fact, if you look at the wording of the tweet today it seems that other teams might have built a case and presented that to FIA on what is happening with these qualy modes.

what tweat are you referring to specifically?

If the other teams have a case/proof, then they should protest, and if the team is breaking any regulations, then they should be fined heavily and stripped of all of their points.

This smacks of more closed doors bs.

[Ringleheim]

We've been down this road before in F1.

So soon, only the biggest, smartest, and most well-funded teams who know how to camouflage qualifying mode will be able to use it, and retain their advantage.

The more things change in F1, the more they stay the same.

If the regulation can't be 100% accurately enforced, don't outlaw it.

And while we are discussing qualifying engines, can we please bring back V12s now and ditch these lame turbos?

[Big Tea]

But there are 3 teams running this engine (soon 4) and they are not places 1-2-3. In fact one of the teams is right down the blunt end. I think far too much emphasis is put on Merc having the best engine. I agree it is the best engine and the best package, but there is far more to them being the dominant team because they were when Ferrari had the best engine.

It is being used as an excuse by other teams

That is not really a strong line of argumentation if one team has just suddenly come on the grid (RP) with a car so akin the works team it could have been a clone. Then what use does talking about a total package still have. In fact, the works team has had place 1 and 2 every race so far and place 3 and 4 are very much up for grabs by the customer team that has a works team akin car as was shown by a reserve driver stepping in and putting it there after 2 weekends. Williams have (which I feel to their merit) tried to keep designing their own car to some extent. A car that f.e. in Hungary was on P3 at the beginning of stint 2 in Q2. Engine does very much. Team 4 (McLaren) will also be a the pointy end of the grid next year with that Merc qualy mode. They have been coming closer every year on their on merit already.

Maybe that is also why there are now rumours around this. The RP can continue to race, but it will get reprimanded every race. FIA (not only there to serve Mercedes and its customers, the other teams should also not have to compete against a (partly) illegal car) is clearly not happy. Maybe feels that cloning the car (although partially within the letter of the rulings, but also partially not, proven already) goes against the sporting regulations and say, OK, if you wan to play the game like that then lets go the other way, no more qualy mode. It is not unprecedented, FIA does change ruling to break periods of dominance. Merc has been dominant in qualy ever since 2014.

I do not really think it has to do with the copy. If you look in general how the grid was resorted, the engine power changes might do more than the copy. If I assume that Merc did not loose as Honda and Renault, Ferrari lost substantially, then FI just leapfrogged Ferrari, Renault and a bit the McLaren. RedBull has a strong car, the AT is nowhere. So my assumption is that only RedBull made a big jump in aero, the rest of the reordering is just engine effects.

Maybe it is more last season/Ferrari:
Remember how easily two of the worst loosers (this is ment partially positive, I like them) on this planet took the defeat in Monza and Spa. Allison knew exactly what Ferrari was doing as their past TD and with the blistering speed in Monza and Spa Wolff and Allison knew that this is the last nail to get rid of Ferrari for the next 5 years.
Now that Ferrari is suddenly policing with the FIA this might be the counter attack and I have to revise my opinion above...maybe the single mode really levels the engines...

Williams is for me the point that proves the superior engine: Look at their development this year. They were nowhere last year and the car this year is awful like last year. There is no changes in their aero. But now with the other engines turned down they suddenly drive in Q2???

You do relise what you are implying here, do you?

[Ringleheim]

Imo, the FIA is becoming far to overbearing. They seem hell bent of banning anything that allows a team or engine manufacture to differentiate themselves from the others. If they really wanted to save all the teams money, and make the racing super close, they should scap everything and just make it a spec series.

They're working very hard on achieving that objective right now.

Have been for quite a while now.

[RZS10]

So far three Ferrari drivers (Seb, Kimi and Charles) have said they wouldn't really be affected by a quali mode ban.