2020 Spanish Grand Prix - Catalunya, August 14 - 16

[Scorpaguy]

For the last 7 seasons, we can assume the following:

1. Does Ham deliver in the best car...yes, with no qualifications.
2. Does Bot deliver in the best car...mostly not, usually outclassed by Ham (and often lesser equipment).
3. Does Max over deliver...mostly yes, sometimes a lesser driver in a better car bests him-but just as often it is the other way 'round.
4. Was Ric a great driver...yep, sorely missed by RB now.
5. Big Red built a decent 2nd place car for 5 seasons...bet it all on a technicality and lost big.

...so, while we really need a Ham/Max fight on equal footing, F1 politics will never allow such. Ham is both great and fortunate, Max is great and unfortunate...he may be the best driver to never win a WDC. Big Red is irrelevant.

Quite possibly because he knew how the second driver would be used. I think it was the best move

Rics best move? Quite likely...however, he may never race a competitive car again (using the term a bit tongue-in-cheek in this era of Merc'ness).

RB on the other hand sorely need to be able to bring 2 dogs into this fight. Merc has 2 cars to chew up Max's tires...Max, aside from bringing a knife to a gun fight, could use the help (at least for threats of undercut/overcut or similar Merc-threatening hi-jinks). Alb and Gas just prove the skills of Ric. I also wonder, if the now more matured Max, would have made for a more harmonious Max/Ric relationship?

[Hammerfist]

For the last 7 seasons, we can assume the following:

1. Does Ham deliver in the best car...yes, with no qualifications.
2. Does Bot deliver in the best car...mostly not, usually outclassed by Ham (and often lesser equipment).
3. Does Max over deliver...mostly yes, sometimes a lesser driver in a better car bests him-but just as often it is the other way 'round.
4. Was Ric a great driver...yep, sorely missed by RB now.
5. Big Red built a decent 2nd place car for 5 seasons...bet it all on a technicality and lost big.

...so, while we really need a Ham/Max fight on equal footing, F1 politics will never allow such. Ham is both great and fortunate, Max is great and unfortunate...he may be the best driver to never win a WDC. Big Red is irrelevant.

Quite possibly because he knew how the second driver would be used. I think it was the best move

Rics best move? Quite likely...however, he may never race a competitive car again (using the term a bit tongue-in-cheek in this era of Merc'ness).

RB on the other hand sorely need to be able to bring 2 dogs into this fight. Merc has 2 cars to chew up Max's tires...Max, aside from bringing a knife to a gun fight, could use the help (at least for threats of undercut/overcut or similar Merc-threatening hi-jinks). Alb and Gas just prove the skills of Ric. I also wonder, if the now more matured Max, would have made for a more harmonious Max/Ric relationship?

Ric and Max wasn't a toxic relationship. Ric left because Redbull made a public declaration that they were going to build around Max. Ric being the ambitious guy that he is, decided that it was better for him to take his talents elsewhere and maybe, just maybe Ferrari or Mercedes will come calling at a later date. His gamble hasn't paid off just yet, but it was the right carll.He was never going to win a WDC at REdbull, because Redbull has chosen Max. I mean, just look at what is going on in the second Redbull since he has left. It's almost like it's a test car for them and everyone in that car cannot drive to their maximum ability.

[epo]

Quite possibly because he knew how the second driver would be used. I think it was the best move

Rics best move? Quite likely...however, he may never race a competitive car again (using the term a bit tongue-in-cheek in this era of Merc'ness).

RB on the other hand sorely need to be able to bring 2 dogs into this fight. Merc has 2 cars to chew up Max's tires...Max, aside from bringing a knife to a gun fight, could use the help (at least for threats of undercut/overcut or similar Merc-threatening hi-jinks). Alb and Gas just prove the skills of Ric. I also wonder, if the now more matured Max, would have made for a more harmonious Max/Ric relationship?

Ric and Max wasn't a toxic relationship. Ric left because Redbull made a public declaration that they were going to build around Max. Ric being the ambitious guy that he is, decided that it was better for him to take his talents elsewhere and maybe, just maybe Ferrari or Mercedes will come calling at a later date. His gamble hasn't paid off just yet, but it was the right carll.He was never going to win a WDC at REdbull, because Redbull has chosen Max. I mean, just look at what is going on in the second Redbull since he has left. It's almost like it's a test car for them and everyone in that car cannot drive to their maximum ability.

Test car hahaha, they would have gotten equal cars. Comparing the situation now with Albon and Gasly is totally different. They would have flipped a coin who have gotten the new parts or the one at front.
If he would have showed he could beat Max and they had the car he would have no less chance for WC then Max. It will never happen at McLaren but maybe and I really hope so for him a win or podium but the win will be difficult.

[holeindalip]

Quite possibly because he knew how the second driver would be used. I think it was the best move

Rics best move? Quite likely...however, he may never race a competitive car again (using the term a bit tongue-in-cheek in this era of Merc'ness).

RB on the other hand sorely need to be able to bring 2 dogs into this fight. Merc has 2 cars to chew up Max's tires...Max, aside from bringing a knife to a gun fight, could use the help (at least for threats of undercut/overcut or similar Merc-threatening hi-jinks). Alb and Gas just prove the skills of Ric. I also wonder, if the now more matured Max, would have made for a more harmonious Max/Ric relationship?

Ric and Max wasn't a toxic relationship. Ric left because Redbull made a public declaration that they were going to build around Max. Ric being the ambitious guy that he is, decided that it was better for him to take his talents elsewhere and maybe, just maybe Ferrari or Mercedes will come calling at a later date. His gamble hasn't paid off just yet, but it was the right carll.He was never going to win a WDC at REdbull, because Redbull has chosen Max. I mean, just look at what is going on in the second Redbull since he has left. It's almost like it's a test car for them and everyone in that car cannot drive to their maximum ability.

I would say more than likely the mclaren is the place to be for next year, they will be up there fighting for podiums....

[Mamba]

It's not just the communication. They are openly making sure Charles finishes ahead come hell or high water. Both pitted on Lap 28. Seb had M's on and Charles had S. It's not like there was a safety car. There is no logic. Seb did 38 laps on the S tyre. If they had been reasonable, P4 was easy in Seb's car and if Charles was in the race, he would have got P4.

I was honestly shocked when I saw they pitted on the same lap. Giving how long Vettel managed to drag his soft tyres I doubt he had massive deg on the medium forcing a pit stop. He should have ran a much longer stint but Ferrari has really descended into shambles this year... Poor strategies just compound issues of a poor car.

[Mansell89]

Rics best move? Quite likely...however, he may never race a competitive car again (using the term a bit tongue-in-cheek in this era of Merc'ness).

RB on the other hand sorely need to be able to bring 2 dogs into this fight. Merc has 2 cars to chew up Max's tires...Max, aside from bringing a knife to a gun fight, could use the help (at least for threats of undercut/overcut or similar Merc-threatening hi-jinks). Alb and Gas just prove the skills of Ric. I also wonder, if the now more matured Max, would have made for a more harmonious Max/Ric relationship?

Ric and Max wasn't a toxic relationship. Ric left because Redbull made a public declaration that they were going to build around Max. Ric being the ambitious guy that he is, decided that it was better for him to take his talents elsewhere and maybe, just maybe Ferrari or Mercedes will come calling at a later date. His gamble hasn't paid off just yet, but it was the right carll.He was never going to win a WDC at REdbull, because Redbull has chosen Max. I mean, just look at what is going on in the second Redbull since he has left. It's almost like it's a test car for them and everyone in that car cannot drive to their maximum ability.

I would say more than likely the mclaren is the place to be for next year, they will be up there fighting for podiums....

I would say that maybe 2022 would be more likely- next year is hard for McLaren as the FIA are breathing down their neck to make sure they aren’t too creative with the engine change, so they may struggle to make as big a leap next year. That might be worth it though with James Key getting a chance to make a name for himself in 2022 and the second year of Mercedes power.

[Hammerfist]

Rics best move? Quite likely...however, he may never race a competitive car again (using the term a bit tongue-in-cheek in this era of Merc'ness).

RB on the other hand sorely need to be able to bring 2 dogs into this fight. Merc has 2 cars to chew up Max's tires...Max, aside from bringing a knife to a gun fight, could use the help (at least for threats of undercut/overcut or similar Merc-threatening hi-jinks). Alb and Gas just prove the skills of Ric. I also wonder, if the now more matured Max, would have made for a more harmonious Max/Ric relationship?

Ric and Max wasn't a toxic relationship. Ric left because Redbull made a public declaration that they were going to build around Max. Ric being the ambitious guy that he is, decided that it was better for him to take his talents elsewhere and maybe, just maybe Ferrari or Mercedes will come calling at a later date. His gamble hasn't paid off just yet, but it was the right carll.He was never going to win a WDC at REdbull, because Redbull has chosen Max. I mean, just look at what is going on in the second Redbull since he has left. It's almost like it's a test car for them and everyone in that car cannot drive to their maximum ability.

I would say more than likely the mclaren is the place to be for next year, they will be up there fighting for podiums....

Yeah I hope so but I'm not too optimistic honestly. Mclaren has not built a top of the line chassis since 2012. We don't really know how much better the Merc PU is compared to a Renault anyway. The Renault PU has made a lot of strides in the last couple of years, currently the second best pu, but it no longer has a Redbull chassis to show its progress.

[foxmulder_ms]

Beware dude, I am constantly marked negative by saying that Bottas is 2nd driver. Beware.

Bottas is *not* second driver the way you put it. You think Merc favors Ham. They do not. Bottas is the slower driver not the second. Bottas couldn't have even won a single race if he was in Redbull or Ferrari.

No one here is claiming any sort of favouritism or conspiracy. They are simply saying Bottas is not good enough and yet not atrocious under the given circumstances. And you are right in that Bottas wouldn't have won in a RBR or Ferrari this year. If that sentence relates to this decade, I'd say you're pretty much trolling.

I am not talking to you, mate. And Unf said/implied many times Merc favors Ham. And obviously, I am talking in general for other two teams where they clearly favor one driver and they have 1st drivers literally spelled out in the contracts.

[Restomaniac]

Sorry, but which race were you watching? Lewis and Max both used the exact same tyres that was used in Silverstone2. C2 and C3. Mercedes didn't touch C1 here and Max didn't use C4 in Silverstone2.

That was the best thing to see! From September onwards as the weather starts cooling down I can see RBR dropping away even further though that will be crappy from a competitive perspective. Also very impressive is that Mercedes have practically had zero upgrades so far, at this rate they won't even have to take a new engine for another 2-3 races.

I am afraid, the quali mode ruling would further destroy the competitiveness and it would virtually guarantee 1-2 for Mercedes every race. With Hamilton having built such a healthy lead, it's just about how many poles and wins is he going to manage.

There are probably going be more PU failures as part of the compromise that teams have to make and run the engines harder than they otherwise would in races as they have to compensate for qualifying.

Indeed. A situation the teams that have been crying to the FIA have helped create.

‘We need to remove party modes to claw back Mercedes’......Mercedes wipe the floor in qualifying without using them.........’Oh bugger!’.

[El Scorchio]

Bottas is *not* second driver the way you put it. You think Merc favors Ham. They do not. Bottas is the slower driver not the second. Bottas couldn't have even won a single race if he was in Redbull or Ferrari.

No one here is claiming any sort of favouritism or conspiracy. They are simply saying Bottas is not good enough and yet not atrocious under the given circumstances. And you are right in that Bottas wouldn't have won in a RBR or Ferrari this year. If that sentence relates to this decade, I'd say you're pretty much trolling.

Pop over to the Merc team thread and read some of the ridiculous stuff on there. You may then think otherwise about people claiming favouritism or conspiracy.

[Carl Mccoy]

If Ferrari had had better shape during qualifying, 4th and 5th positions would be within reach. They had a pretty decent race pace and low degradation.

[drunkf1fan]

I've told it last time, got answers counterattacking me and I'm gonna tell it again: Bottas is a really weak racer.

That much is clear, yet Mercedes refuse to replace him with Russell in 2021, so what can fans do?

Write a strongly worded letter to Mercedes-AMG F1 Team noting the benefits of signing Russell or Alonso for that matter?

It's absurd that Alonso is excluded from the Mercedes-AMG team for trivial reasons (a $100m fine for McLaren-Mercedes over a decade ago, which was not Alonso's fault anyway).

Why should Mercedes replace him? Hamilton is miles away from his team mate, but Bottas is a clean and stable enough driver to get points which help the team win the title at the end. And if there is a wingman-situation there is no better wingman than Bottas as well. So why replace him with a hungry young driver like Russell now?
They renew contracts with Valtteri because of the reasons I've stated, not because they think he's one of the best drivers out there. That's for sure.

How is there no better wingman? IN 2017 and 2018 when you account for the big mistakes, the points lost by Vettel and Ferrari, and Kimi in the case of Singapore, Ferrari could have at the very least been in the fight for both titles both seasons. How was Bottas being a great wingman in the loads of races where he was the slowest of the top 3 team drivers while Hamilton was winning. In Brazil or the US where Bottas was being passed and doing a third stop because his tire life was so bad while Ham was winning or pushing for the win, or other races where Ham was fighting for 2nd place and Bottas was 5th or 6th again.

It's easy to be a wingman in a dominant car, you don't need a good wingman in a dominant car, in a competitive season Bottas's lack of performance in 2017/18 could and should have cost Merc both titles.

More importantly Bottas can't take over for Hamilton, sure if he left in lets say 2023 and Merc are utterly dominant in 2024 Bottas could win easily, if Ham leaves and Merc are only a top 3 car Bottas will be terrible leading the team. Russell could potentially lead the team but he needs time in a competitive car, making on track passes, fighting in Q3, learning his race craft and tire wear with a real benchmark to improve against. Right now Russell barely does any racing and his tire wear, who knows because he's had weak team mates so his tire wear could be good or if he stepped into Merc tomorrow it might be drastically worse than Bottas.

Right now that second seat is wasted on Bottas, with a dominant car anyone can achieve what he's doing but in a championship season he's proven he isn't good enough. Merc need to be cycling people through that second seat till they get someone who can show the potential to match Hamilton and take over when he retires. That seat should have Russell in it either proving he has the potential or proving he doesn't then going forwards from there.

[Schuttelberg]

Apologies for my ignorance on the Merc thread. Sorry to the guys who I misjudged by giving someone else the benefit of doubt without being fully informed.

[Schuttelberg]

It's not just the communication. They are openly making sure Charles finishes ahead come hell or high water. Both pitted on Lap 28. Seb had M's on and Charles had S. It's not like there was a safety car. There is no logic. Seb did 38 laps on the S tyre. If they had been reasonable, P4 was easy in Seb's car and if Charles was in the race, he would have got P4.

I was honestly shocked when I saw they pitted on the same lap. Giving how long Vettel managed to drag his soft tyres I doubt he had massive deg on the medium forcing a pit stop. He should have ran a much longer stint but Ferrari has really descended into shambles this year... Poor strategies just compound issues of a poor car.

It doesn't make any sense. I get the strategy for Charles but the one on Seb is abysmally shocking.

[214270]

That much is clear, yet Mercedes refuse to replace him with Russell in 2021, so what can fans do?

Write a strongly worded letter to Mercedes-AMG F1 Team noting the benefits of signing Russell or Alonso for that matter?

It's absurd that Alonso is excluded from the Mercedes-AMG team for trivial reasons (a $100m fine for McLaren-Mercedes over a decade ago, which was not Alonso's fault anyway).

Why should Mercedes replace him? Hamilton is miles away from his team mate, but Bottas is a clean and stable enough driver to get points which help the team win the title at the end. And if there is a wingman-situation there is no better wingman than Bottas as well. So why replace him with a hungry young driver like Russell now?
They renew contracts with Valtteri because of the reasons I've stated, not because they think he's one of the best drivers out there. That's for sure.

How is there no better wingman? IN 2017 and 2018 when you account for the big mistakes, the points lost by Vettel and Ferrari, and Kimi in the case of Singapore, Ferrari could have at the very least been in the fight for both titles both seasons. How was Bottas being a great wingman in the loads of races where he was the slowest of the top 3 team drivers while Hamilton was winning. In Brazil or the US where Bottas was being passed and doing a third stop because his tire life was so bad while Ham was winning or pushing for the win, or other races where Ham was fighting for 2nd place and Bottas was 5th or 6th again.

It's easy to be a wingman in a dominant car, you don't need a good wingman in a dominant car, in a competitive season Bottas's lack of performance in 2017/18 could and should have cost Merc both titles.

More importantly Bottas can't take over for Hamilton, sure if he left in lets say 2023 and Merc are utterly dominant in 2024 Bottas could win easily, if Ham leaves and Merc are only a top 3 car Bottas will be terrible leading the team. Russell could potentially lead the team but he needs time in a competitive car, making on track passes, fighting in Q3, learning his race craft and tire wear with a real benchmark to improve against. Right now Russell barely does any racing and his tire wear, who knows because he's had weak team mates so his tire wear could be good or if he stepped into Merc tomorrow it might be drastically worse than Bottas.

Right now that second seat is wasted on Bottas, with a dominant car anyone can achieve what he's doing but in a championship season he's proven he isn't good enough. Merc need to be cycling people through that second seat till they get someone who can show the potential to match Hamilton and take over when he retires. That seat should have Russell in it either proving he has the potential or proving he doesn't then going forwards from there.

Maybe you should consider that Merc might already know the answer to the BOT/RUS 2nd seat dilemma.