Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[63l8qrrfy6]

FE motors are rumoured to be around 98% efficient so there's a few kw to be gained right there if F1 can match that.

[Brake Horse Power]

98% Would be extremely impressive but in the end its all about the map combined with the inverter

[Zynerji]

I thought 98% electric motors were common now???

[ispano6]

I'm of the opinion that the MGU-H has more potential for gains. The MGU-K has it's designated limits, but the MGU-H doesn't and is only limited by what it can exchange into energy and what the battery can store. I posted in the past about Honda's research into carbon-nanotubes and how effective it was in converting heat into energy and also transmitting energy compared to copper wires. I would be giddy with happiness if that innovation has made it into Honda's F1 program, but in a way worries me if they get banned for having an advantage or making it hard to "enforce" electrical legality. It would be very much like Honda to test this technology in F1 as the ultimate test-case.

One of the issues for Honda that is clearly a recurring theme this year is the harness and sensors associated to it. We know that the Honda Aero division assisted in the development of BOTH the turbo and MGU-H. The efforts made here directly led to higher performance and reliability. However, if more energy were to be converted from the MGU-H, then something has to be able to provide the throughput. My hunch is that Honda this year harnesses more power from the MGU-H to assist the turbo with higher energy stored and harnessed quicker, but the higher the heat and conversion exchange, the more fatigue the system incurs. When I think of a harness having issues, I'm thinking of a wire that has broken within it's sheath or has caught fire because it couldn't handle the power due to being too low gauge. Granted, this is all conjecture, but might the harness have some weakness that is inherent to metallic carbon nanotubes, specifically it's actual physical construction (granted carbon-nanotubes are purported to be stronger than steel)? Or even if it is a conventional wire harness, what kind of load, signal, noise, or interference could cause a harness and it's sensors to malfunction? If the 2nd PU was able to sustain peak performance more than the 1st PU, why? I don't think the answer is as simple as saying "because it's newer". The 2nd PU should have had whatever harness fixes the 1st PU received, but there were still anomalies in the data despite being the newer PU. Is the 2nd PU too much for the fixed harness and requires further beefing up?

Looking at the FIA regulations, Page 17 displays the list of permitted materials, but wiring looms on Page 18 falls under "Exceptions" meaning they can be made of materials outside of the permitted materials. This makes me curious. Then there is Page 108 for wiring loom and 110 for wiring harness.
https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... 5-27_0.pdf



FIA Slide from the same deck. Note the bottom blue box "Non-ERS energy stores" and "unlimited" to other ancillaries. What other ancillaries might there be that could improve performance?



Information On Honda's Carbon Nanotube technology (2009)
https://global.honda/newsroom/worldnews ... ology.html

Information on Carbon Nanotubes heat conversion (Source is Tokyo Metropolitan University)
https://scitechdaily.com/aligned-metall ... er-output/

Also, Honda has been working with GS Yuasa and in the same year of the carbon nanotube announcement (2009) created the company Blue Energy. GS Yuasa and Panasonic are pushing the development of solid state and quantum glass batteries. Quantum glass batteries and carbon nanotube conduits will go hand in hand. It's only a matter of time that these innovations pop up in F1 and potentially be banned Some incredible technology is just around the corner.

Quantum Glass batteries was proposed by John Goodenough in 2017.
https://thedriven.io/2020/04/06/li-ion- ... -industry/

[PlatinumZealot]

Carbon nanotubes are far from ready for use yet. Still a pie in the sky application. The contacts of carbon nantoube to metal is your problem... And actually making the nanotube without defects....

Lithium metal batteries should be ready in a few years. About a 30% improvement in density can be expected.

[mem]

does Honda power unit has reliability upgrades? if no who has?

The FIA suspects some reliability changes requested by teams have arisen because ‘quali modes’ were used to run engines beyond their normal parameters. The requests for reliability changes may therefore be an indirect means of unlocking more performance.

https://www.racefans.net/2020/08/20/ban ... rand-prix/

[Big Tea]

Carbon nanotubes are far from ready for use yet. Still a pie in the sky application. The contacts of carbon nantoube to metal is your problem... And actually making the nanotube without defects....

Lithium metal batteries should be ready in a few years. About a 30% improvement in density can be expected.

Tesla has announced another battery day coning up in September. Some seem to think they have cracked solid state batteries. Or not

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYEevmuxMgU covers some of it

Edit, sorry posted tesla vid on Honda forum

[Laserguru]

Carbon nanotubes are far from ready for use yet. Still a pie in the sky application. The contacts of carbon nantoube to metal is your problem... And actually making the nanotube without defects....

Lithium metal batteries should be ready in a few years. About a 30% improvement in density can be expected.

Tesla has announced another battery day coning up in September. Some seem to think they have cracked solid state batteries. Or not

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYEevmuxMgU covers some of it

Edit, sorry posted tesla vid on Honda forum

Or Toyota’s fluoride-ion solid state battery, which was set to be launched to the public during 2020’s olympic games, or any of the other solid state batteries... https://www.imec-int.com/en/articles/b ... technology
Big changes coming relatively soon.

[PlatinumZealot]

I think it is new samsung battery technology being adapted to the car market.

[ispano6]

Carbon nanotubes are far from ready for use yet. Still a pie in the sky application. The contacts of carbon nantoube to metal is your problem... And actually making the nanotube without defects....

Lithium metal batteries should be ready in a few years. About a 30% improvement in density can be expected.

Tesla has announced another battery day coning up in September. Some seem to think they have cracked solid state batteries. Or not

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYEevmuxMgU covers some of it

Edit, sorry posted tesla vid on Honda forum

Or Toyota’s fluoride-ion solid state battery, which was set to be launched to the public during 2020’s olympic games, or any of the other solid state batteries... https://www.imec-int.com/en/articles/b ... technology
Big changes coming relatively soon.

Honda worked with NASA on their fluoride-ion battery for the past couple years so Honda too could be bringing that to mass market as well. And they also are working with GM on hydrogen fuel cell cars. The only thing holding EVs back is the retard Hachigo.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/12/08/ho ... akthrough/

[zibby43]

does Honda power unit has reliability upgrades? if no who has?

The FIA suspects some reliability changes requested by teams have arisen because ‘quali modes’ were used to run engines beyond their normal parameters. The requests for reliability changes may therefore be an indirect means of unlocking more performance.

https://www.racefans.net/2020/08/20/ban ... rand-prix/

Didn't Honda introduce their new PU early for "reliability" purposes?

[GhostF1]

does Honda power unit has reliability upgrades? if no who has?

The FIA suspects some reliability changes requested by teams have arisen because ‘quali modes’ were used to run engines beyond their normal parameters. The requests for reliability changes may therefore be an indirect means of unlocking more performance.

https://www.racefans.net/2020/08/20/ban ... rand-prix/

Didn't Honda introduce their new PU early for "reliability" purposes?

They rushed forward a second specification, which ended up only being half what they wanted to bring, which was the reliability side anyway, no announced performance gain.
It wouldn't matter anyway as they didn't introduce it mid-season as a "reliability upgrade", it was rushed to make the first race of the season. So it's not suspect at all.

If anything, the fact Mercedes burned through their first MGU-K on all six cars smells a little odd to me (and no they are not in the pool for any of them, they are all expired). Renault and Merc having a noticeable performance difference between their qualification and race modes, as in it's a pretty big jump, that also could raise eyebrows. If it was Ferrari, I'd be shocked because their PU is a little bit of a slug at the moment so it'd look pretty poor if they were still circumventing the rules for that performance and Honda in general I'd be surprised if they were just outright cheating, culturally... it's not something I can imagine them doing nor can I see anything suspect with their performance on track.

I mean Ferrari have gotten away with whatever it was they were doing without any punishment, what's to say Merc's sudden appeal withdrawal last year wasn't a final finger to the FIA in that they can go down the line of "fine, we'll do what Ferrari are doing too if there's no Championship penalty or public, financial/award repercussions".
I mean what's the worst that can happen? the FIA strike another quiet deal but with Mercedes this time and tell them to stop doing what they're doing ala Ferrari last year?

The whole saga has opened so many potential holes it isn't funny. (this is all theoretical by the way, I'm merely making suggestions, not accusing)

[Wouter]

does Honda power unit has reliability upgrades? if no who has?

https://www.racefans.net/2020/08/20/ban ... rand-prix/

Didn't Honda introduce their new PU early for "reliability" purposes?

They rushed forward a second specification, which ended up only being half what they wanted to bring, which was the reliability side anyway, no announced performance gain.
It wouldn't matter anyway as they didn't introduce it mid-season as a "reliability upgrade", it was rushed to make the first race of the season. So it's not suspect at all.

If anything, the fact Mercedes burned through their first MGU-K on all six cars smells a little odd to me (and no they are not in the pool for any of them, they are all expired). Renault and Merc having a noticeable performance difference between their qualification and race modes, as in it's a pretty big jump, that also could raise eyebrows. If it was Ferrari, I'd be shocked because their PU is a little bit of a slug at the moment so it'd look pretty poor if they were still circumventing the rules for that performance and Honda in general I'd be surprised if they were just outright cheating, culturally... it's not something I can imagine them doing nor can I see anything suspect with their performance on track.

I mean Ferrari have gotten away with whatever it was they were doing without any punishment, what's to say Merc's sudden appeal withdrawal last year wasn't a final finger to the FIA in that they can go down the line of "fine, we'll do what Ferrari are doing too if there's no Championship penalty or public, financial/award repercussions".
I mean what's the worst that can happen? the FIA strike another quiet deal but with Mercedes this time and tell them to stop doing what they're doing ala Ferrari last year?

The whole saga has opened so many potential holes it isn't funny. (this is all theoretical by the way, I'm merely making suggestions, not accusing)

I think you have a vew very good points @Ghost.

[zibby43]

does Honda power unit has reliability upgrades? if no who has?

https://www.racefans.net/2020/08/20/ban ... rand-prix/

Didn't Honda introduce their new PU early for "reliability" purposes?

They rushed forward a second specification, which ended up only being half what they wanted to bring, which was the reliability side anyway, no announced performance gain.
It wouldn't matter anyway as they didn't introduce it mid-season as a "reliability upgrade", it was rushed to make the first race of the season. So it's not suspect at all.

If anything, the fact Mercedes burned through their first MGU-K on all six cars smells a little odd to me (and no they are not in the pool for any of them, they are all expired). Renault and Merc having a noticeable performance difference between their qualification and race modes, as in it's a pretty big jump, that also could raise eyebrows. If it was Ferrari, I'd be shocked because their PU is a little bit of a slug at the moment so it'd look pretty poor if they were still circumventing the rules for that performance and Honda in general I'd be surprised if they were just outright cheating, culturally... it's not something I can imagine them doing nor can I see anything suspect with their performance on track.

I mean Ferrari have gotten away with whatever it was they were doing without any punishment, what's to say Merc's sudden appeal withdrawal last year wasn't a final finger to the FIA in that they can go down the line of "fine, we'll do what Ferrari are doing too if there's no Championship penalty or public, financial/award repercussions".
I mean what's the worst that can happen? the FIA strike another quiet deal but with Mercedes this time and tell them to stop doing what they're doing ala Ferrari last year?

The whole saga has opened so many potential holes it isn't funny. (this is all theoretical by the way, I'm merely making suggestions, not accusing)

Reliability and performance are inextricably linked. The more reliable and robust your PU is, the harder you can run it. Full stop.

Honda has made massive progress in the past 2 seasons. Not alleging they're doing anything either, but let's not shortchange the amount of performance they've injected into that PU over the past 2 seasons.

Where's the evidence that there's a massive difference between Merc's qualifying and race modes? They look pretty handy in the race to me.

Mark Hughes had a pretty good piece out a week ago about how everyone is massively overestimating Merc's supposed Q3 mode, noting that that they historically take less out of their tires in Q2.

Not to mention the fact Mercedes still secured pole by 7+ tenths in Barcelona using Strat 3, which is the first time I can remember them using that mode in Q3.

I think we're about to have our answers in Monza. And I won't be surprised to see Mercedes using a lower-deployment mode in Spa, again, as well.

To even imply Merc said "Oh, Ferrari got away with something, so we'll go for it too" is pretty much implying they're cheating. And to also imply that Honda, or any other team or manufacturer, isn't or hasn't pushed the gray areas of the rules to the limit, is, I must say (respectfully), naive/wishful thinking.

[mem]

thank you guys , i must have been living in cave i didn't know this information's
last thing i know that Honda started the season with performance upgrade and Mercedes with reliability upgrade
in my opinion Honda gained alot last 2 seasons for they were behind and joined 2015 but i think Mercedes power unit performance is not normal.