[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[HPD]

Just to make something clear. Mercedes and RB had cars with "mixed" configuration (rain and dry).
Any comparison with Renault seems RIDICULOUS

[McMika98]

Just to make something clear. Mercedes and RB had cars with "mixed" configuration (rain and dry).
Any comparison with Renault seems RIDICULOUS

Still the higher downforce should help with tyre wear but it was the opposite.

The Renault engine is very good off traction and accleration. Monza has one corner to speak off. Still hoping Max or Alex does a number on Merc but I would not be suprised if the Renault is up there.

[nzjrs]

got it ?

I understand the numbers, I don't understand the meaning you want to convey. That because the car costs more every year, every year is a more expensive car? That every year that merc improves RB improves too?

mate its realy simple , no matter how RBR boast about their most expensive developed car it will lack to Mercedes as long they lack the manpower to exploit all its potentials which lead to the never ending 5 tenths deficit as been said by
NEWEY

We have 125 people in the aerodynamics office. Mercedes almost double. The output is automatically higher.

all RBR doing now is trying to out smart mercs occasionally , they even could of beat mercs in SPA if they put a smaller rear wing , still won't be enough so their aerodynamics department need more manpower, being skint won't help them.
they need to spend more money smartly , they will have new title sponsor and have their commercial earnings.

Oh OK, sorry I literally could not understand your text. You are saying that because RBR spend less then Merc they will be behind then. Cool story I guess, not really ground breaking - many of us are in favour of a budget cap for well argued reasons.

[Hammerfist]

Here's a novel thought; Mercedes, Honda and Renault are pretty evenly matched as power units. Merc may have the most power, but it is likely less than 30hp, Renault and Honda seem indistinguishable to me. What makes the difference is the chassis and aero. The recipe for Redbull to catch merc is to match their chassis/ aero performance. Renault, Mclaren and the rest of the midfield cars including Racing Point can't match the Redbull chassis/aero performance.

That's a way too easy type of thinking.
It's not just hp .. it's driveability, thermal efficiency, traction/pickup, durability etc. Even if peak power difference is 30hp, it's just more or less than that.
So, no .. it's not just about aero/platform/concept, it's about a package.

And while they now have some sort of a works status, they're lagging at least 5/6/7 years behind mercedes i that respect.

Which is exactly why Merc on current form will easily maintain their status come 2022; they can afford to invest almost full blown into that concept, as they have such an advantage at the moment (ie for 2020/2021)

I don't disagree with the whole package theory, in fact that is kind of what I am trying to say. It's just that a lot of people including the media are focused on horsepower or lack there of. I've said this before; this is not a drag race competition. HP is not the end all be all when we are rating these power units, and the power units alone do not determine the competitive pecking order.
But there is no way to know if Merc will maintain their status quo come 2022. It will be about who did the best job with the regulations. It is impossible to tell who it will be, especially with the cost cap being introduced, which will help the smaller constructors. History shows that whenever we have this huge a change in regulations, that stops a team to continue their domination. I see no reason why this will not be true again.

[mem]

Oh OK, sorry I literally could not understand your text. You are saying that because RBR spend less then Merc they will be behind then. Cool story I guess, not really ground breaking - many of us are in favour of a budget cap for well argued reasons.

i appreciate your optimism
Mercedes is working from now or perhaps last year on the 2022 car.
i think Mercedes after Hamilton wins the 2021 title will tell him look Lewis you already break every record in formula 1
its time for the new super star show your class in-front of Max verstappen , and then F1 fans will have the most exciting 2 years in the hybrid era Hamilton vs Max in a Mercedes.

[Lock2nl]

I would now say renault has a slight but meaningful edge over honda in quali trim. It's not a decisive difference, but it's there to be seen. Im looking mainly at mclaren since renault's chassis is just too much on the slippery side, 2019 ferrari style almost, mclaren is more balanced.
Another clue is renault and mclarens lack of race pace (compared to verstappen), which surely must come in part from PU performance as I very much doubt RB as a car magically becoming better over night in parc ferme. As verstappen said a race or two ago: "we're lapping people we're barely beating in quali".

If the Renault chassis is that bad they would not have survived the long hard tyres stint with a low downforce setup (=less wing). My guess is they found extra downforce from the floor and diffuser. If that is correct, they should show an improved pace after Monza as well.

Renault's chassis is mediocre as seen in spain just a few weeks ago. Mercedes also struggled with tyres and that car was far and above the best in twisty bits. If anything cars with worse cornering performance fared better with tyres in spa.

So they cannot introduce a better floor and/or diffuser in Spa?
I know the Renault had a dry weather low downforce setup. But RBR was not on the downforce levels of Merc. And they did not have a setup specifically for rain.
If you carry to much speed -relative to the grip you get from the wings, floor and diffuser- tyres will suffer. So you have to back off. Hence, Daniel should be slower in S2 on the same tyres at least most of the laps than Max.

Here is what happens. Daniel is no longer stuck behind Pierre as of lap 21. Until lap 30 Daniel improves s2 times up to a second and matched those of Max. From lap 36 onwards he is faster than Max (and he is faster in s1 and s3 as well). Max loses 2 seconds until the end. Daniel stabilizes at around 47.7 (apart from the last lap when he scraps off another 5 tenth).

My conclusion is that despite having less wing on the car, Daniel could match sector 2 times of Max more or less when he ditched Pierre. If the Renault chassis is that bad (mediocre), the RBR really isn't that much better.

[Juzh]

If the Renault chassis is that bad they would not have survived the long hard tyres stint with a low downforce setup (=less wing). My guess is they found extra downforce from the floor and diffuser. If that is correct, they should show an improved pace after Monza as well.

Renault's chassis is mediocre as seen in spain just a few weeks ago. Mercedes also struggled with tyres and that car was far and above the best in twisty bits. If anything cars with worse cornering performance fared better with tyres in spa.

So they cannot introduce a better floor and/or diffuser in Spa?
I know the Renault had a dry weather low downforce setup. But RBR was not on the downforce levels of Merc. And they did not have a setup specifically for rain.
If you carry to much speed -relative to the grip you get from the wings, floor and diffuser- tyres will suffer. So you have to back off. Hence, Daniel should be slower in S2 on the same tyres at least most of the laps than Max.

Here is what happens. Daniel is no longer stuck behind Pierre as of lap 21. Until lap 30 Daniel improves s2 times up to a second and matched those of Max. From lap 36 onwards he is faster than Max (and he is faster in s1 and s3 as well). Max loses 2 seconds until the end. Daniel stabilizes at around 47.7 (apart from the last lap when he scraps off another 5 tenth).

My conclusion is that despite having less wing on the car, Daniel could match sector 2 times of Max more or less when he ditched Pierre. If the Renault chassis is that bad (mediocre), the RBR really isn't that much better.

When it mattered and when tyres weren't an issue Verstappen had 0.5-0.7s on Ricci easily. RB played it safe and just brought the car home. If you think renault is anywhere near RB on chassis front based on a single stint in a single race then, sure, suit yourself.
And yes, renault chassis is mediocre where it concerns downforce. They're good mechanically and on straights, but proper garbage in high speed corners, which is why they sucked in barcelona. Fortunately for them this years there's more tracks coming up that should suit their car.
To add. Renault was the slowest car in high speed corners in spa. Yes, the slowest. I've looked at telemetry for every car and they were all substaintally faster in every high speed corner. Even williams was much faster trough pouhon for example, as was ferrari, alfa and other mid field cars. red bull was on a different planet compared to renault.
Comparing renault's chassis to red bull is a disgrace to red bull engineers at this point in time.

[Lock2nl]

When things were compatible, Max did not have 5-7 tenth. I do not judge engineers. I simply look at the data.

[Sieper]

Comparable?

Maybe Renault was slightly better. Last year they were super in Monza. If You are correct Lock they will beat Max, but I don’t think that will happen.

[langedweil]

Here's a novel thought; Mercedes, Honda and Renault are pretty evenly matched as power units. Merc may have the most power, but it is likely less than 30hp, Renault and Honda seem indistinguishable to me. What makes the difference is the chassis and aero. The recipe for Redbull to catch merc is to match their chassis/ aero performance. Renault, Mclaren and the rest of the midfield cars including Racing Point can't match the Redbull chassis/aero performance.

That's a way too easy type of thinking.
It's not just hp .. it's driveability, thermal efficiency, traction/pickup, durability etc. Even if peak power difference is 30hp, it's just more or less than that.
So, no .. it's not just about aero/platform/concept, it's about a package.

And while they now have some sort of a works status, they're lagging at least 5/6/7 years behind mercedes i that respect.

Which is exactly why Merc on current form will easily maintain their status come 2022; they can afford to invest almost full blown into that concept, as they have such an advantage at the moment (ie for 2020/2021)

I don't disagree with the whole package theory, in fact that is kind of what I am trying to say. It's just that a lot of people including the media are focused on horsepower or lack there of. I've said this before; this is not a drag race competition. HP is not the end all be all when we are rating these power units, and the power units alone do not determine the competitive pecking order.
But there is no way to know if Merc will maintain their status quo come 2022. It will be about who did the best job with the regulations. It is impossible to tell who it will be, especially with the cost cap being introduced, which will help the smaller constructors. History shows that whenever we have this huge a change in regulations, that stops a team to continue their domination. I see no reason why this will not be true again.

Past results do not guarantee future ones

Things have changed significantly; it's no longer about racing, it's entertainment build around huge advertizing budgets (hence Max's comment about saving the machine for 38/44 laps).

The budget cap is coming; if not for CovID and the 1 one year delay of the new rules/cars, that 2021 car would have to be ready by now.
So IMHO the budget cap will not help the smaller teams (at least not the first 4/5yrs) simply because the deficit is already created before the cap comes into play. And everyone behind Merc will once again have to try to lessen the deficit, while Merc will do exactly the same on the other side of the spectrum.

Been saying this for a long time now; the power to weight ratio needs to be much bigger, combined with tires that can be pushed like mad. That's the only way drivers can/will make the difference.
Everything else is just makeup ...

[Alexf1]

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14885 ... rest-of-20

[Wouter]

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14885 ... rest-of-20

From the article:

A new shutdown period has been introduced for power unit manufacturers, moving in line with the enforced three-week break all F1 teams are currently taking.

Engine arms such as Mercedes-AMG High Performance Powertrain were previously exempt from the shutdown.

They did not have to close and were allowed to continue working? Why?

[Moore77]

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14885 ... rest-of-20

From the article:

A new shutdown period has been introduced for power unit manufacturers, moving in line with the enforced three-week break all F1 teams are currently taking.

Engine arms such as Mercedes-AMG High Performance Powertrain were previously exempt from the shutdown.

They did not have to close and were allowed to continue working? Why?

Applicable for all manufacturers, not just Mercedes. Forced break was meant for F1 racing teams, not for PU manufacturers.

[Wouter]

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14885 ... rest-of-20

From the article:

A new shutdown period has been introduced for power unit manufacturers, moving in line with the enforced three-week break all F1 teams are currently taking.

Engine arms such as Mercedes-AMG High Performance Powertrain were previously exempt from the shutdown.

They did not have to close and were allowed to continue working? Why?

Applicable for all manufacturers, not just Mercedes. Forced break was meant for F1 racing teams, not for PU manufacturers.

I know for sure all PU factories have been closed for a number of weeks. Honda less, but they are closed in August.

[Just_a_fan]

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14885 ... rest-of-20

From the article:

A new shutdown period has been introduced for power unit manufacturers, moving in line with the enforced three-week break all F1 teams are currently taking.

Engine arms such as Mercedes-AMG High Performance Powertrain were previously exempt from the shutdown.

They did not have to close and were allowed to continue working? Why?

The engine factories were helping with ventilator manufacture for Covid.