New party mode regulation

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nevill3
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New party mode regulation

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I have searched for clarification on the exact wording of the technical directive and have been unable to find a definitive explanation as to what will either be allowed or prohibited from the Italian grand prix.

My current understanding is that the teams will no longer be able to switch between different modes so the mode used during qualifying must be maintained during the race. Does anybody have any further insight as to the limitations this new TD will have.

I presume the harvesting and deployment of the electrical motor generator will not be explicitly included but this has not been confirmed as far as I can ascertain.

My personal take on this will mean the teams using a more aggressive race mode than usual with more lift and coast to balance it out and more use of the "push to pass" button, most teams seem to have, during qualifying to maximise their one lap pace.

If anybody could supply a link or quote of what is now allowed would be much appreciated and also an informed discussion as to how the teams will optimise their settings to circumvent or reduce the effects of this FIA directive.
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FrukostScones
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Re: New party mode regulation

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this is the most detailed explanation I have read:

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... direktive/
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henry
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Re: New party mode regulation

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There’s already an extensive thread on this with several useful links and commentary from manufacturers. https://www.f1technical.net/forum/view ... 35#p917835

I agree with the conclusion that they’ll use more lift and coast, and possibly short shift.
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collindsilva
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Re: New party mode regulation

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Does the engine modes also apply during the practice or just for quali and race

the EDGE
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Re: New party mode regulation

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collindsilva wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:11 am
Does the engine modes also apply during the practice or just for quali and race
Teams are free to do what ever they want in practice

Wass85
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Re: New party mode regulation

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the EDGE wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:25 am
collindsilva wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:11 am
Does the engine modes also apply during the practice or just for quali and race
Teams are free to do what ever they want in practice
The question is will it be faster using a higher engine mode with more lift and coasting or a lower engine mode with less lift and coasting?

I'm guessing they will be trying all this out in practice?

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jjn9128
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Re: New party mode regulation

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nevill3 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:30 am
I have searched for clarification on the exact wording of the technical directive and have been unable to find a definitive explanation as to what will either be allowed or prohibited from the Italian grand prix.

My current understanding is that the teams will no longer be able to switch between different modes so the mode used during qualifying must be maintained during the race. Does anybody have any further insight as to the limitations this new TD will have.

I presume the harvesting and deployment of the electrical motor generator will not be explicitly included but this has not been confirmed as far as I can ascertain.

My personal take on this will mean the teams using a more aggressive race mode than usual with more lift and coast to balance it out and more use of the "push to pass" button, most teams seem to have, during qualifying to maximise their one lap pace.

If anybody could supply a link or quote of what is now allowed would be much appreciated and also an informed discussion as to how the teams will optimise their settings to circumvent or reduce the effects of this FIA directive.
It's defined in one of the dreaded "technical directives" rather than in the rule book. Though it may be added at a later date.
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nevill3
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Re: New party mode regulation

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henry wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:59 am
There’s already an extensive thread on this with several useful links and commentary from manufacturers. https://www.f1technical.net/forum/view ... 35#p917835

I agree with the conclusion that they’ll use more lift and coast, and possibly short shift.
Thanks for the link, I found that just after I had finished posting my question. I agree short shifting will also help reduce the engine wear and I now know they will be prohibited from using the overtake button during Qualy. Do the teams design their own engine maps or are they exclusively down to the engine manufacturers. If it is the individual teams that create or modify the engine maps the bigger teams will be able to spend their way to success once more.
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the EDGE
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Re: New party mode regulation

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Wass85 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:29 am
the EDGE wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:25 am
collindsilva wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:11 am
Does the engine modes also apply during the practice or just for quali and race
Teams are free to do what ever they want in practice
The question is will it be faster using a higher engine mode with more lift and coasting or a lower engine mode with less lift and coasting?

I'm guessing they will be trying all this out in practice?
I don't think it works like that TBH. Power mode setting change how the different elements of then PU operate, not the amount of throttle pressing the accelerator produces

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Sieper
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Re: New party mode regulation

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I don't understand this lift and coast idea. The faster engine mode is turbo boost, aggressive ignition timing, fuel mixture.

If you use such a mode the detriment that has on the engine is not prevented by lifting and coasting, every corner exit you are full throttle (and if we look at telemetry it normally is always full throttle or full brake (or a slight lift if the turn requires it) and the chance of knock is always there (even under lifting a bit). Mercedes drivers switched off their strat2 modes directly on the finish line in the qualy lap such was the risk, detrimental effect on engine life).
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Re: New party mode regulation

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nevill3 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:24 am
henry wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:59 am
There’s already an extensive thread on this with several useful links and commentary from manufacturers. https://www.f1technical.net/forum/view ... 35#p917835

I agree with the conclusion that they’ll use more lift and coast, and possibly short shift.
Thanks for the link, I found that just after I had finished posting my question. I agree short shifting will also help reduce the engine wear and I now know they will be prohibited from using the overtake button during Qualy. Do the teams design their own engine maps or are they exclusively down to the engine manufacturers. If it is the individual teams that create or modify the engine maps the bigger teams will be able to spend their way to success once more.
Engine speed isn't an issue anymore like in the NA days, where power came from revs. They will still use 10.500 - 12.000 rpm.
Biggest difference between party mode and race mode is the use of the turbo and waste gates. During a balls to the wall lap they don't need to harvest much, so all power from the petrol and ES can be converted into speed. During the race, they must harvest 4MJ a lap, to use in the next lap.

Also, in a Q lap or at the first few laps in the race, they can run 100kg/h, without fuel saving. The rest of the race its managing to have a balance the fastest way to the finish. Most teams don't take the full 110kg of fuel on board, because it's faster to start with 95kg for instance and do more fuel saving. Mercedes and especially Hamilton is known for being fast and fuel efficient.

Extra laptime also comes from the gearbox. They are seamless, but to reduce stress on the mechanism, apart from qualifying and the extra push laps, they run in a somewhat conservatie mode, turning down the torque at the moment of shift.

What we probably will miss are the "waste gates open" qualfing laps" and the "recharge and cool down for two laps" between attacks during the race. If indeed open wastegates (and blow the engine with the ERS-H), it could be possible to do two fast laps in a row in qualifying, which is now impossible.

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henry
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Re: New party mode regulation

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the EDGE wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:39 am
Wass85 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:29 am
the EDGE wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:25 am


Teams are free to do what ever they want in practice
The question is will it be faster using a higher engine mode with more lift and coasting or a lower engine mode with less lift and coasting?

I'm guessing they will be trying all this out in practice?
I don't think it works like that TBH. Power mode setting change how the different elements of then PU operate, not the amount of throttle pressing the accelerator produces
This directive only directly affects the ICE. The other PU elements are not controlled by the directive. There will be some knock on for the other elements.
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henry
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Re: New party mode regulation

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Sieper wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:55 am
I don't understand this lift and coast idea. The faster engine mode is turbo boost, aggressive ignition timing, fuel mixture.

If you use such a mode the detriment that has on the engine is not prevented by lifting and coasting, every corner exit you are full throttle (and if we look at telemetry it normally is always full throttle or full brake (or a slight lift if the turn requires it) and the chance of knock is always there (even under lifting a bit). Mercedes drivers switched off their strat2 modes directly on the finish line in the qualy lap such was the risk, detrimental effect on engine life).
They must use the same ICE modes. One thing they do in qualification and less in the race is burn additional fuel at part throttle to generate Electrical energy. They may still choose to go that in both and compensate by lift and coast.
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Sieper
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Re: New party mode regulation

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Thank you Henry for taking the time, I have learned a lot from you. So that would mean at part throttle during qualy more ERS recharge and in the race then don’t do part throttle but fully lift so that the additional fuel will not be burned at all (or lift to a lower percentage, where the additional ERs recharge fuel burning stops already. Say 60% throttle or something). And then take more fuel with you also to prevent lifting and coasting.

Might happen, who knows.
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henry
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Re: New party mode regulation

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Jolle wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:09 pm
nevill3 wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:24 am
henry wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:59 am
There’s already an extensive thread on this with several useful links and commentary from manufacturers. https://www.f1technical.net/forum/view ... 35#p917835

I agree with the conclusion that they’ll use more lift and coast, and possibly short shift.
Thanks for the link, I found that just after I had finished posting my question. I agree short shifting will also help reduce the engine wear and I now know they will be prohibited from using the overtake button during Qualy. Do the teams design their own engine maps or are they exclusively down to the engine manufacturers. If it is the individual teams that create or modify the engine maps the bigger teams will be able to spend their way to success once more.
Engine speed isn't an issue anymore like in the NA days, where power came from revs. They will still use 10.500 - 12.000 rpm.
Biggest difference between party mode and race mode is the use of the turbo and waste gates. During a balls to the wall lap they don't need to harvest much, so all power from the petrol and ES can be converted into speed. During the race, they must harvest 4MJ a lap, to use in the next lap.
Agreed there is no need to reduce revs to reduce wear.

Instead I’m suggesting that they might run a more aggressive ICE mode in some of the gears, maybe 3,4,5. This will add to the damage the ICE sustains while these gears are selected. By short shifting in the race they can reduce the time, number of cycles, the ICE runs in this more damaging mode.

[/quote]

Biggest difference between party mode and race mode is the use of the turbo and waste gates. During a balls to the wall lap they don't need to harvest much, so all power from the petrol and ES can be converted into speed. During the race, they must harvest 4MJ a lap, to use in the next lap.
Yes and no. This is just one mode of operation of the PU. they use it longer in a qualification lap but it does not change the stresses on the ICE in the way party mode does.

The Party mode refers to increasing the power of the ICE but means such as ignition advance which causes additional damage to the ICE.

During a qualification lap they harvest like mad. They need all the electrical energy they can create in order to run with wastegates open. To do that they will burn additional fuel both driving against the MGU-K and potentially changing ICE mapping to increase MGU-H recovery.

In the race they can harvest 2MJ from the MGU-K. They can also harvest from the MGU-H. If they have to run the same ICE mappings all the time they might choose to use more fuel to harvest both in both phases and compensate by lift and coast.

Also, in a Q lap or at the first few laps in the race, they can run 100kg/h, without fuel saving. The rest of the race its managing to have a balance the fastest way to the finish. Most teams don't take the full 110kg of fuel on board, because it's faster to start with 95kg for instance and do more fuel saving. Mercedes and especially Hamilton is known for being fast and fuel efficient.
Totally agree. Given the new rules they will need to change the Calculation of fuel amount and degree of lift and coast. In the first few practice sessions they will seek to familiarise themselves with where the trade off lies
Extra laptime also comes from the gearbox. They are seamless, but to reduce stress on the mechanism, apart from qualifying and the extra push laps, they run in a somewhat conservatie mode, turning down the torque at the moment of shift.
Good point. They may need to use softer changes in qualification.
What we probably will miss are the "waste gates open" qualfing laps" and the "recharge and cool down for two laps" between attacks during the race. If indeed open wastegates (and blow the engine with the ERS-H), it could be possible to do two fast laps in a row in qualifying, which is now impossible.
I don’t think this will change at all. They can still I use the same ERS modes
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus