Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Are Schumacher's WDC and Win records under threat of being eclipsed?

Will the 7 WDC record be broken?
6
3%
Will the 91 Victory record be broken?
44
26%
Neither record will be broken.
20
12%
Both records will be broken.
102
59%
 
Total votes: 172

Wass85
Wass85
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Phil wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:53 pm
Yes, I'd conclude that. I must say that comparing times without context is always problematic. Data like this can be misrepresented. I.e. if one of the drivers had a bad Q2 because something wasn't right in the car and thus doesn't make it into Q3, the time still stands and is used to compare. The data is simply too big (for me) to go back and analyze each session, understand and put into the right context, therefore, it is what it is. One could assume that across a season, these "problems" even out.

Given Alonso's strength in qualifying though, I personally think that the data does support that quite evidently that he was the much quicker driver across the season. Bottas too, to be fair, just not by the same margin. This could have many reasons; 1.) Bottas isn't as quick as Alonso 2.) Massa was quicker in the hybrid era than he was before.

Personally I think it's a bit of both. Alonso is a very very quick driver. He has demonstrated this well across his entire F1 career. But adding to that, I also think that Massa underperformed at Ferrari, perhaps as a result of him not receiving the same backing and support by the team. When he switched to Williams, I think he immediately felt much more comfortable in this new surrounding and this possibly also carried over towards his general performance, making him a more formidable competitor.

Just my 2 cents.
Thanks, I knew that Alonso was faster than Bottas relative to Massa contrary to what Platinum said.

I think the people who doubted Alonso's qualifying prowess need their heads testing, the man is as fast as anyone over one lap.

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NathanOlder
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Wass85 wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:28 pm
Phil wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:53 pm
Yes, I'd conclude that. I must say that comparing times without context is always problematic. Data like this can be misrepresented. I.e. if one of the drivers had a bad Q2 because something wasn't right in the car and thus doesn't make it into Q3, the time still stands and is used to compare. The data is simply too big (for me) to go back and analyze each session, understand and put into the right context, therefore, it is what it is. One could assume that across a season, these "problems" even out.

Given Alonso's strength in qualifying though, I personally think that the data does support that quite evidently that he was the much quicker driver across the season. Bottas too, to be fair, just not by the same margin. This could have many reasons; 1.) Bottas isn't as quick as Alonso 2.) Massa was quicker in the hybrid era than he was before.

Personally I think it's a bit of both. Alonso is a very very quick driver. He has demonstrated this well across his entire F1 career. But adding to that, I also think that Massa underperformed at Ferrari, perhaps as a result of him not receiving the same backing and support by the team. When he switched to Williams, I think he immediately felt much more comfortable in this new surrounding and this possibly also carried over towards his general performance, making him a more formidable competitor.

Just my 2 cents.
Thanks, I knew that Alonso was faster than Bottas relative to Massa contrary to what Platinum said.

I think the people who doubted Alonso's qualifying prowess need their heads testing, the man is as fast as anyone over one lap.
Thats not what Platinum said, so dont paint it that way. He said the gap from Massa to Alonso was similar to Massa to Bottas, which it clearly was in qualy pace. The 4 years Massa was with Alonso, Phil points out the gap was over 2 tenths, but under 3 tenths for 3 of those years, and 1 season just over 3 tenths. Bottas was team mates for 3 years with him, all 3 were over 2 tenths but under 3 tenths.

So the average gap for the full periods were

Alonso 0.285 over 4 yrs.
Bottas 0.233 over 3 yrs.

Thats a difference of 0.052. We all know Massa was a wreck during the years next to Alonso, but lets not even consider that. So without that, Bottas vs Alonso using Massa as a yard stick puts them half a tenth apart. And like you say, we all know Fernando was a great qualifier. So this only makes Bottas look great as well.

(hope I have my numbers right :lol: )
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Wass85
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:53 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:28 pm
Phil wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:53 pm
Yes, I'd conclude that. I must say that comparing times without context is always problematic. Data like this can be misrepresented. I.e. if one of the drivers had a bad Q2 because something wasn't right in the car and thus doesn't make it into Q3, the time still stands and is used to compare. The data is simply too big (for me) to go back and analyze each session, understand and put into the right context, therefore, it is what it is. One could assume that across a season, these "problems" even out.

Given Alonso's strength in qualifying though, I personally think that the data does support that quite evidently that he was the much quicker driver across the season. Bottas too, to be fair, just not by the same margin. This could have many reasons; 1.) Bottas isn't as quick as Alonso 2.) Massa was quicker in the hybrid era than he was before.

Personally I think it's a bit of both. Alonso is a very very quick driver. He has demonstrated this well across his entire F1 career. But adding to that, I also think that Massa underperformed at Ferrari, perhaps as a result of him not receiving the same backing and support by the team. When he switched to Williams, I think he immediately felt much more comfortable in this new surrounding and this possibly also carried over towards his general performance, making him a more formidable competitor.

Just my 2 cents.
Thanks, I knew that Alonso was faster than Bottas relative to Massa contrary to what Platinum said.

I think the people who doubted Alonso's qualifying prowess need their heads testing, the man is as fast as anyone over one lap.
Thats not what Platinum said, so dont paint it that way. He said the gap from Massa to Alonso was similar to Massa to Bottas, which it clearly was in qualy pace. The 4 years Massa was with Alonso, Phil points out the gap was over 2 tenths, but under 3 tenths for 3 of those years, and 1 season just over 3 tenths. Bottas was team mates for 3 years with him, all 3 were over 2 tenths but under 3 tenths.

So the average gap for the full periods were

Alonso 0.285 over 4 yrs.
Bottas 0.233 over 3 yrs.

Thats a difference of 0.052. We all know Massa was a wreck during the years next to Alonso, but lets not even consider that. So without that, Bottas vs Alonso using Massa as a yard stick puts them half a tenth apart. And like you say, we all know Fernando was a great qualifier. So this only makes Bottas look great as well.

(hope I have my numbers right :lol: )
My first comment was the speed margin was similar.

Alonso to Massa average quali gap. Seconds.

2010 : -0.3
2011: -0.294
2012: -0.329
2013: - 0.224

Massa actually got faster in his final year with Alonso.

Bottas on average was faster than massa 3 tenths closer to 4 tenths. These are the facts


That's exactly what he said though.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Wass85 wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:41 pm



That's exactly what he said though.
Was using number froms race fans. Their numbers are unfiltered not accounting for different incidents.

But anyway.. The point is the same: Bottas' is around the same speed as Alonso and thus his pace does not allow Lewis Hamilton to take it easy, as some posters were alluding to.
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ringo
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Wass85 wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:41 pm
Phil wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:39 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:35 pm
My first comment was the speed margin was similar.

Alonso to Massa average quali gap. Seconds.

2010 : -0.3
2011: -0.294
2012: -0.329
2013: - 0.224

Massa actually got faster in his final year with Alonso.

Bottas on average was faster than massa 3 tenths closer to 4 tenths. These are the facts.

I could easily say that Bottas is as fast as Alonso in qualifying and it would not sound crazy.
Coincidentally, I developed a parser and tool to analyze the QF performances of team-mates:

2010 Alonso : 14 vs Massa : 3 (82% / 18%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.296
--- Total avg per km : -0.063

2011 Alonso : 15 vs Massa : 4 (79% / 21%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.294
--- Total avg per km : -0.062

2012 Alonso : 17 vs Massa : 3 (85% / 15%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.329
--- Total avg per km : -0.064

2013 Alonso : 10 vs Massa : 8 (56% / 44%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.224
--- Total avg per km : -0.045

-----------------------------------------------

2014 Bottas : 11 vs Massa : 7 (61% / 39%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.205
--- Total avg per km : -0.037

2015 Bottas : 11 vs Massa : 7 (61% / 39%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.211
--- Total avg per km : -0.039

2016 Bottas : 17 vs Massa : 4 (81% / 19%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.285
--- Total avg per km : -0.060


^^ Only comparable sessions are used. If only one driver made it into Q3/Q2, then the Q2/Q1 time was used to compare. I also saved the length of each track, so it gives a better representation of their performance (a shorter track will yield a smaller difference between drivers).
So Alonso was faster on average than Bottas relative to Massa.
Barely, and Bottas was a pretty much a rookie driving against a very experienced driver. Alonso was on top of his game.
It is fair to say Bottas is much more improved at Mercedes and performing at his highest level.

Can this analysis be done with Hamilton vs Rosberg and Hamilton Vs Bottas over a 4 year period?

Because i think that Bottas was a faster driver on average than Rosberg; even when Rosberg was coached with Lewis' data.
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Wass85
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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ringo wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:18 pm
Wass85 wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:41 pm
Phil wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:39 pm


Coincidentally, I developed a parser and tool to analyze the QF performances of team-mates:

2010 Alonso : 14 vs Massa : 3 (82% / 18%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.296
--- Total avg per km : -0.063

2011 Alonso : 15 vs Massa : 4 (79% / 21%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.294
--- Total avg per km : -0.062

2012 Alonso : 17 vs Massa : 3 (85% / 15%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.329
--- Total avg per km : -0.064

2013 Alonso : 10 vs Massa : 8 (56% / 44%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.224
--- Total avg per km : -0.045

-----------------------------------------------

2014 Bottas : 11 vs Massa : 7 (61% / 39%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.205
--- Total avg per km : -0.037

2015 Bottas : 11 vs Massa : 7 (61% / 39%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.211
--- Total avg per km : -0.039

2016 Bottas : 17 vs Massa : 4 (81% / 19%)
--- Total avg diff : -0.285
--- Total avg per km : -0.060


^^ Only comparable sessions are used. If only one driver made it into Q3/Q2, then the Q2/Q1 time was used to compare. I also saved the length of each track, so it gives a better representation of their performance (a shorter track will yield a smaller difference between drivers).
So Alonso was faster on average than Bottas relative to Massa.
Barely, and Bottas was a pretty much a rookie driving against a very experienced driver. Alonso was on top of his game.
It is fair to say Bottas is much more improved at Mercedes and performing at his highest level.

Can this analysis be done with Hamilton vs Rosberg and Hamilton Vs Bottas over a 4 year period?

Because i think that Bottas was a faster driver on average than Rosberg; even when Rosberg was coached with Lewis' data.
But you could also say Alonso came in to a team that Massa had been in since 2006 and handled him with ease whilst Massa had entered Bottas' team.

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ringo
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Well i don't think Alonso needed much time to get up to speed. An experience driver going into a team needs much less acclimatization compared to a rookie with no experience in F1 at all. Alonso won his first race with Ferrari.
He had the speed out of the box. He was in no way rusty.

Also we must remember that Alonso was never strongest in qualifying and he admitted that. So it's not blasphemy to say Bottas is just as fast.
The numbers don't lie either Bottas is very close to Hamilton in Q3. I think closer than Rosberg was on average.
Since we are using massa as the link to guage Bottas' speed relative to the rest of the field; it's a fact he is as fast as Alonso. Now we can see if he is faster than Rosberg who is a champion as well.
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Moore77
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Bottas is driving cars, which are some of the best cars in the history of F1, with such supreme balance. When the W08 was diva, he used to be nowhere. W09, W10 and W11 are far more supreme in balance and power compared to the ones that Rosberg drove. Even Rosberg had difficulties with W06 when that car was difficult to setup and was handsomely beaten by Hamilton in 2015. Both Rosberg and Bottas struggled when the cars were not perfectly balanced, but they used to be close to Hamilton when the cars were on rails. A usual trait of ordinary drivers.

Alonso, for most part of his career, drove poorly balanced cars and yet, managed to beat his team mates with clinical perfection. It's not an apples to apples comparison when it comes to the cars that Bottas and Alonso drove. Besides, both Rosberg and Bottas had the advantage of Hamilton's pace as a reference to improve, whereas Alonso was a reference for himself and had to improvise his own driving to find advantage over team mates. Hamilton, on days when he struggles with setup, gets guidance of where to make up time based on how his team mate is doing. Although, he ultimately prevails, which is why is he is a great driver.
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ringo
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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You know you are exaggerating the differences with cars that basically are evolution of each other.
The last hard to drive mercedes was never in the turbo era. Those were in fact very handy during qualifying.
Their dificulty came during the race when the tyre performance evolved.
There were a hand full of circuits where the tyres were out of operating range and the car was difficult to qualify.
Bottas and Rosberg are not ordinary drivers. They were always prodigies.
Bottas had a very strong record since his entry into F1 and so did Rosberg who came to Williams as some technical prodigy driver who went on to defeat his teammates up to the times of handily beating Michael Shumacher himself.
No ordinary driver will beat Michael 3 years in a row in what were also difficult cars to drive.

You speak of Alonso not having a reference. Well you are forgeting 2007 where he had Hamilton just as much as Rosberg and Bottas did. You speak as if Alonso did not race against Hamilton at all to gauge where Bottas is.
Alonso was outraced and outpaced by a Rookie Hamilton. Bottas and Rosberg had to deal with a more complete Hamilton than Alonso did.
Alonso is a great driver no doubt, but his strongest teammates throughout his whole career were Hamilton, Massa, and Jenson Button. And these cars that he raced with were not poorly balanced by any means.

Anyhow i will try and gather the Rosberg vs Hamilton and Hamilton vs Bottas data.
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Wass85
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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ringo wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:40 am
You know you are exaggerating the differences with cars that basically are evolution of each other.
The last hard to drive mercedes was never in the turbo era. Those were in fact very handy during qualifying.
Their dificulty came during the race when the tyre performance evolved.
There were a hand full of circuits where the tyres were out of operating range and the car was difficult to qualify.
Bottas and Rosberg are not ordinary drivers. They were always prodigies.
Bottas had a very strong record since his entry into F1 and so did Rosberg who came to Williams as some technical prodigy driver who went on to defeat his teammates up to the times of handily beating Michael Shumacher himself.
No ordinary driver will beat Michael 3 years in a row in what were also difficult cars to drive.

You speak of Alonso not having a reference. Well you are forgeting 2007 where he had Hamilton just as much as Rosberg and Bottas did. You speak as if Alonso did not race against Hamilton at all to gauge where Bottas is.
Alonso was outraced and outpaced by a Rookie Hamilton. Bottas and Rosberg had to deal with a more complete Hamilton than Alonso did.
Alonso is a great driver no doubt, but his strongest teammates throughout his whole career were Hamilton, Massa, and Jenson Button. And these cars that he raced with were not poorly balanced by any means.

Anyhow i will try and gather the Rosberg vs Hamilton and Hamilton vs Bottas data.
You do realise that Alonso was on average slightly faster than Hamilton in qualifying in 2007.

I don't know where the myth comes from that Alonso is not a fast qualifier from when he's one of the best ever at it.

Alonso was just under a tenth faster than Hamilton in Q2 over the season.

I think it was something like 0.084, correct me if I'm wrong.

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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Wass85 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:57 am
Alonso was just under a tenth faster than Hamilton in Q2 over the season.

I think it was something like 0.084, correct me if I'm wrong.
But Q2 isn't the important one is it? Q3 is the important one because that's the one that sets the grid.
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Wass85
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:37 am
Wass85 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:57 am
Alonso was just under a tenth faster than Hamilton in Q2 over the season.

I think it was something like 0.084, correct me if I'm wrong.
But Q2 isn't the important one is it? Q3 is the important one because that's the one that sets the grid.
That was the only time they ran equal fuel, they qualified with fuel in Q3 so Alonso was running heavier more often than not.

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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Wass85 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:51 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:37 am
Wass85 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:57 am
Alonso was just under a tenth faster than Hamilton in Q2 over the season.

I think it was something like 0.084, correct me if I'm wrong.
But Q2 isn't the important one is it? Q3 is the important one because that's the one that sets the grid.
That was the only time they ran equal fuel, they qualified with fuel in Q3 so Alonso was running heavier more often than not.
Ah yes, I'd forgotten the fuel rule at the time.
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Wass85
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:06 am
Wass85 wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:51 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 9:37 am

But Q2 isn't the important one is it? Q3 is the important one because that's the one that sets the grid.
That was the only time they ran equal fuel, they qualified with fuel in Q3 so Alonso was running heavier more often than not.
Ah yes, I'd forgotten the fuel rule at the time.
Just under a tenth is really nothing though is it over the season, it's a shame we never got a broader case study with these two greats of the sport.

You have two convincing arguments in claiming one would have tuned out better than the other.

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Moore77
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Moore77 wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:53 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:46 pm
Moore77 wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:38 pm
So the never ending exercise continues to show Bottas in good light to then justify.....
As opposed to trying to make him look rubbish in order to denigrate...


See how it plays both ways? :roll:
He is rubbish and the facts against Hamilton proves it. Possessing championship winning cars and losing out to other drivers with lesser cars does not exactly make him decent. Just hard facts.
Anyone who would try to argue that Bottas is good and all that, today's race confirms he is such a slouch. There couldn't have been a worse driver driving that dominating machine. His team mate just shows what that car can do. More than anything, another fluffed start. They even repaired his car in the break! Even a Barrichello could have achieved a minimum podium position, but not Bottas. Why need to put a line in the contract to make a driver No.2, when you have such a poor driver driving the car. :roll:
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