Reverse grid gimmick is go!

For ease of use, there is one thread per grand prix where you can discuss everything during that specific GP weekend. You can find these threads here.
Schippke
Schippke
12
Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2020 3:00 am
Location: Australia

Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

Post

As has already been stated a few times here, we should wait until the new regulations of 2022 come into effect before making any real changes to the current format. If they work as intended it might end up solving a few problems for processional races. Some tracks are just hard for overtaking full stop, and that is magnified due to the current crop of cars we currently have.

If the field is more levelled out, then I'd argue there would be a lot less complaints any of this; There are new rules and regulations in place for Next year with the amount of research and development allowed on the cars and the cost-cap... again, give it a couple of seasons to see how things shape out.

I personally don't want to see a Williams/Haas/Alfa Romeo win any time of race due to a reverse grid/qualifying race or what have you... I'd rather have them win on pace, strategy and a bit of luck on the occasion. Reverse Grids/Qualifying races work well in Spec-Series mixing up the drivers, teams and forcing them to utilise the best possible result in equal machinery. For me, It doesn't feel fair that a Mercedes, Red Bull or Ferrari has to start at the back because they've built a fast car.

cooken
cooken
11
Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:57 am

Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

Post

DRS train.

Trulli train.


It's not a difficult concept people, wake up.

User avatar
Shrieker
13
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 10:41 pm

Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

Post

I hope they don't go down this route... Maybe a sprint race, but not reverse grid, please not - thank you.
Education is that which allows a nation free, independent, reputable life, and function as a high society; or it condemns it to captivity and poverty.
-Atatürk

Restomaniac
Restomaniac
0
Joined: Mon May 16, 2016 12:09 am
Location: Hull

Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

Post

I’m clearly in a minority of 1 which is fine. Just remember to never bitch about a boring race ever again because that’s clearly what is preferred instead of the FIA trying something different.

Hoffman900
Hoffman900
206
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2019 2:02 am

Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:41 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:47 pm


Really, F1 should just try to be a faster Indy Car at this point. That will be the best of both.
Really? Let's make F1 in to Indy Car. That's your suggestion?

With Yanks now owning the rights, we might well see that, but please let's not rush to it.
The next gen cars aren't going to be far off...

At least Indy Car knows how to handle close pit lanes and safety cars. :lol:

User avatar
proteus
22
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:35 pm

Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

Post

Restomaniac wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:46 am
I’m clearly in a minority of 1 which is fine. Just remember to never bitch about a boring race ever again because that’s clearly what is preferred instead of the FIA trying something different.
Well why dont we also give 75% of answers to students at tests right from the start, that would also boost the numbers of excellent students and would make us as the smartest generation ever....
If i would get the money to start my own F1 team, i would revive Arrows

User avatar
proteus
22
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:35 pm

Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

Post

Restomaniac wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:04 pm
So we currently have processions and people complain. We then have a completely mixed up grid and race due to a one time set of circumstances and people complain. The FIA try to do something to patch over the obvious current problems and people complain.

The FIA/Liberty have looked to help overtaking with a complete regs reset including helping cars follow each other and it was supposed to come into play next year added to caps to try and balance the field. However a global pandemic pushed it back 12 months.

It would be easy for the FIA to just shrug and say ‘tough’ they however are trying to do a short term fix to improve the racing. Can we at least give this a go bearing in mind that we actually have processional races currently which people keep complaining about.
They are the ones who created the mess by kneelling infront of manufacturers and making the sport to comply with their agenda. But we definetly dont need a clown show of reverse grids and similar shenanigans. Solution is simple, but everybody are being blind for it. Where is the point of competition if those who are slower get rewarded and those who are better are punished for it?
If i would get the money to start my own F1 team, i would revive Arrows

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
593
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

Post

Phil wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:51 pm
I’ll just repeat myself again, fot those that missed it:

To overtake successfully, you need a time delta between cars. The bigger that delta, the better.

If all cars qualify according to their performance, but in reverse order, you are creating trains of cars unable to overtake each other, because the faster cars behind will not have a large enough delta to overtake the (slightly) slower car ahead of them.

This succession will carry to the front, where the slowest car will hold up the entire pack.

Good example are the last 20 laps of Monza where slower cars held up sligtly quicker ones for the entire race.

If that is supposed to be more exciting than what we have now, people really need a good shake and a bucket full of cold water to go with it.
Spot on.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

alexx_88
alexx_88
12
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:46 am
Location: Bucharest, Romania

Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

Post

Restomaniac wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:46 am
I’m clearly in a minority of 1 which is fine. Just remember to never bitch about a boring race ever again because that’s clearly what is preferred instead of the FIA trying something different.
You're not. I think people employ rose tinted glasses more than they'd like to admit. Also people like us, that comment on F1 forums are more likely to be hard core fans who find entertainment in a lot of the things that come with F1, besides the racing on Sunday.

Problem is that F1 is unsustainable at its current level. There's also nothing sacred about the purpose of finding the fastest car and driver combination. It's all for entertainment. So anything that improves its chances to survive long term at the current budget levels gets an upvote from me. Especially as there's nothing locking us into a sub optimal solution. If reverse grid races don't work, it can be improved or scrapped.

Being a bit of a racer myself I agree with Phil's point though. With the current time deltas required to overtake reverse grid races wouldn't really work as well as expected. The new aero regulations will also be needed in order to get that overtake time Delta down as much as possible

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
593
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

Post

Restomaniac wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:46 am
I’m clearly in a minority of 1 which is fine. Just remember to never bitch about a boring race ever again because that’s clearly what is preferred instead of the FIA trying something different.
But the "quick, try something, anything!" approach isn't the answer either. One weird race that put the fastest car/driver combo at the back isn't a successful prototype for how to run an entire championship season.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
593
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:37 pm

Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

Post

Found this is another thread:


The only overtaking was Hamilton fighting back past backmarkers. Those drivers/cars that were close to each other's pace just sat behind each other.

The idea that reverse grids will make for lots of overtaking is just plain wrong. All it is is an attempt to prevent Mercedes and RedBull from being the dominant scorers at races.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

the EDGE
the EDGE
67
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:31 pm
Location: Bedfordshire ENGLAND

Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:39 am
Restomaniac wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:46 am
I’m clearly in a minority of 1 which is fine. Just remember to never bitch about a boring race ever again because that’s clearly what is preferred instead of the FIA trying something different.
But the "quick, try something, anything!" approach isn't the answer either. One weird race that put the fastest car/driver combo at the back isn't a successful prototype for how to run an entire championship season.
One of F1’s biggest failings is patience. Time & time again we have seen performance start to level-off across the field only for the rules to be changed which allows 1 team to do a better job and open up a big performance gap again. - rule changes usually agreed several seasons before

Sure, Merc currently have a big margin, but that is dwindling and the performance across the other 9 teams is as close as it’s ever been at the moment, if not the closest it’s been

Next year could be even closer, then Bam.. new regs for 22 will kick-in and once again they will spread out because someone’s done a better job - that is, unless the 22 regs actually achieve what they were designed for

And if the 22 regs work... what’s the need for gimmicks?

Fulcrum
Fulcrum
15
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:05 pm

Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

Post

Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:30 pm
JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 1:50 pm


Of course if you DNF in the qualifying race you will start the Grand Prux last, so it is in everyone's interests to race clean and fair in the qualifying "heat". :wink:
Go ask Briatore and Piquet Jnr about racing cleanly and not causing crashes on purpose. :wink:
Yes, go and ask them how their careers panned out after that incident.

User avatar
hollus
Moderator
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:21 am
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

Post

Processional races has been an intermitent problem since the 90s. That mytical Hakkinen pass on Schumaches and Zonta in Spa is mythical because it was super-risky and it was only attempted in the first place because everyone and their dog knew that a) Hakkinen was faster and b) He would probably never manage to find a way through. At least that's how I remember it.

If the reverse grids are there just ensure passing, I can thing of two more elegant ways to ensure passing (which of course will prove to be full of holes upon closer inspection):
1) Mandate barn door wings. Top speeds of 310 sounds OK, we've been there before. And they would ensure not only a massive draft, but also a few flat-out corners to create effectively longer straights.
2) Mandate all cars to use all three dry compounds in every race. And bring far apart compounds. Surely one tire would be only used for a lap, but that would create vastly divergent strategies and extra opportunities for versatile cars or drivers. Plus that would be truly, truly green as you need less tires overall.
Rivals, not enemies.

User avatar
Big Tea
99
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

Post

hollus wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:43 am
Processional races has been an intermitent problem since the 90s. That mytical Hakkinen pass on Schumaches and Zonta in Spa is mythical because it was super-risky and it was only attempted in the first place because everyone and their dog knew that a) Hakkinen was faster and b) He would probably never manage to find a way through. At least that's how I remember it.

If the reverse grids are there just ensure passing, I can thing of two more elegant ways to ensure passing (which of course will prove to be full of holes upon closer inspection):
1) Mandate barn door wings. Top speeds of 310 sounds OK, we've been there before. And they would ensure not only a massive draft, but also a few flat-out corners to create effectively longer straights.
2) Mandate all cars to use all three dry compounds in every race. And bring far apart compounds. Surely one tire would be only used for a lap, but that would create vastly divergent strategies and extra opportunities for versatile cars or drivers. Plus that would be truly, truly green as you need less tires overall.
It is a shame there is no possible way to return to times when a car went around a corner better or was faster.
Some dragged out of a bend some braked into one. So many bends are flat out and the car does not notice the curve. Tracks where this is not so are altered (look at old bus stop)

There is just plain too much power available now. If it does not corner, stick on downforce. If its not fast take it off.
This is not helped by DRS rather reduced.

I am not suggesting a method of returning to it, but would like to see engines down to 1ltr, a fuel limit per race, and get on with it. I would also love to see cars half the size they are, but it is not going to happen due to safety
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.