FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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michl420
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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Tzk wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:41 pm
michl420 wrote: I know 4 MJ/lap but no charging at the end of straight.
Afaik they can use more than 4MJ, but the difference between the lowest and highest charging state is 4MJ. So you could use 8MJ per lap if you manage to fully charge the battery twice. Still the powerlimit of the mgu-k applies.
The only rule for batterie is the weight. Soc and capacity is completly free. More capacity, more laps without charging.

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henry
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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michl420 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:49 pm
Tzk wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:41 pm
michl420 wrote: I know 4 MJ/lap but no charging at the end of straight.
Afaik they can use more than 4MJ, but the difference between the lowest and highest charging state is 4MJ. So you could use 8MJ per lap if you manage to fully charge the battery twice. Still the powerlimit of the mgu-k applies.
The only rule for batterie is the weight. Soc and capacity is completly free. More capacity, more laps without charging.
I think you’ve missed the requirement that the difference between the maximum and minimum SOC must not be greater than 4MJ any time the car is on the track. More capacity can be beneficial but it doesn’t increase the number of laps without charging.
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toraabe
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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I think FIA will regret this because we will all have snake races and no overtakes

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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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henry wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:10 pm
michl420 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:49 pm
Tzk wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:41 pm


Afaik they can use more than 4MJ, but the difference between the lowest and highest charging state is 4MJ. So you could use 8MJ per lap if you manage to fully charge the battery twice. Still the powerlimit of the mgu-k applies.
The only rule for batterie is the weight. Soc and capacity is completly free. More capacity, more laps without charging.
I think you’ve missed the requirement that the difference between the maximum and minimum SOC must not be greater than 4MJ any time the car is on the track. More capacity can be beneficial but it doesn’t increase the number of laps without charging.
I don´t miss it. But when the capacity is maybe 40 MJ, you can use in lap 1 soc 38-34, lap 2 soc 34-30, lap 3 soc 30-26, and so on. The point is to not recharge the ES with the MGU-K on the straight, to have better lap time or more laps energy than the car in front to overtake it. I think that´s in the regulations. The 4MJ is per lap not all the time.

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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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toraabe wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:02 am
I think FIA will regret this because we will all have snake races and no overtakes
I will wait for 3 races to give it a judgment but for sure if we just take what happened at Monza, it sure looks like it
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Mudflap
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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michl420 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:15 am
henry wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:10 pm
michl420 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:49 pm


The only rule for batterie is the weight. Soc and capacity is completly free. More capacity, more laps without charging.
I think you’ve missed the requirement that the difference between the maximum and minimum SOC must not be greater than 4MJ any time the car is on the track. More capacity can be beneficial but it doesn’t increase the number of laps without charging.
I don´t miss it. But when the capacity is maybe 40 MJ, you can use in lap 1 soc 38-34, lap 2 soc 34-30, lap 3 soc 30-26, and so on. The point is to not recharge the ES with the MGU-K on the straight, to have better lap time or more laps energy than the car in front to overtake it. I think that´s in the regulations. The 4MJ is per lap not all the time.
It is impossible to have such high capacity with current technology given the power and weight requirements.

We can make a reasonable guess at the battery capacity using a Ragone plot (below).
Using the battery weight of 20 kg and peak power (MGUK+MGUH) 120+100 = 220 kW the specific power would be around 11000 W/kg. From the graph you can see that at such high specific power the specific energy is limited to around 60 Wh/kg (Very high power Li-Ion) which is just a tad over 4 MJ for a 20 kg battery. In reality the capacity might be anywhere up to 10-12 MJ but it certainly won't be anywhere close to 40 MJ.

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michl420
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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It´s just an example. Important is the difference between 2 cars (or PUs).

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Mudflap
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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But what I am trying to say is that there can't be a big difference.
In reality even with say 10 MJ, the SOC range where the battery is efficient only gives you a limited usable capacity.
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TimW
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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I do not understand why lack off ICE modes itself would hamper overtaking. The defending car can use the mode to defend as well, and if the modes of the attacking and defending driver are equally powerful, the nett difference is 0.

The lack of overtaking is simply due to the current cars. You need a big delta to be able to overtake. If you try to bring the field closer together (by e.g. taking away powerful modes from some engines), there is no big delta, so no overtaking. Furthermore on low dowforce monza the field was closer than normally(I think)

So yes it has become more difficult to overtake for Mercedes, but it has become easier to overtake a Mercedes(assuming they had most powerful modes)

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henry
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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michl420 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:15 am
henry wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:10 pm
michl420 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:49 pm


The only rule for batterie is the weight. Soc and capacity is completly free. More capacity, more laps without charging.
I think you’ve missed the requirement that the difference between the maximum and minimum SOC must not be greater than 4MJ any time the car is on the track. More capacity can be beneficial but it doesn’t increase the number of laps without charging.
I don´t miss it. But when the capacity is maybe 40 MJ, you can use in lap 1 soc 38-34, lap 2 soc 34-30, lap 3 soc 30-26, and so on. The point is to not recharge the ES with the MGU-K on the straight, to have better lap time or more laps energy than the car in front to overtake it. I think that´s in the regulations. The 4MJ is per lap not all the time.
The exact wording is “any time the car is on the track” . Not “per lap”. So I’m afraid you’re scheme would be illegal.
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subcritical71
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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michl420 wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:15 am
henry wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:10 pm
michl420 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:49 pm


The only rule for batterie is the weight. Soc and capacity is completly free. More capacity, more laps without charging.
I think you’ve missed the requirement that the difference between the maximum and minimum SOC must not be greater than 4MJ any time the car is on the track. More capacity can be beneficial but it doesn’t increase the number of laps without charging.
I don´t miss it. But when the capacity is maybe 40 MJ, you can use in lap 1 soc 38-34, lap 2 soc 34-30, lap 3 soc 30-26, and so on. The point is to not recharge the ES with the MGU-K on the straight, to have better lap time or more laps energy than the car in front to overtake it. I think that´s in the regulations. The 4MJ is per lap not all the time.
I have never seen that the limit on SOC is per lap. I have seen that the energy per lap only in reference to how much energy the MGU-K can send to or receive from the ES.

In the 'Power Unit Energy Flow' diagram it is stated;
The difference between the maximum and the minimum state of charge of the ES may not exceed 4MJ at any time the car is on the track.

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henry
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 10:45 am
But what I am trying to say is that there can't be a big difference.
In reality even with say 10 MJ, the SOC range where the battery is efficient only gives you a limited usable capacity.
From memory there was an image posted a while ago of an ES labelled as 2.3kWh which is 8.4MJ. It isn’t clear whether this is physical capacity or working capacity.

If it is physical capacity usable capacity might be around 5MJ. This leaves only 1MJ or so to provide for efficiency losses.

If it is working capacity the physical capacity might be in the 12-14 range you suggested earlier. This would allow 4 or 5 MJ for efficiency losses over the course of a race. At 98% round trip efficiency that would allow for 3 to 4 MJ per lap charge/deploy.

I think your estimate of ES power is a little high. Mercedes say the peak is 200kW and I think the average is likely to be nearer the 120kW it supplies to the MGU-K.
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nzjrs
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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SmallSoldier wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:32 pm
Xwang wrote:Today Wolf starts complaining about the one engine map rule:
"We always said that, you create one power mode for the whole race means that you haven't got the extra spice to overtake," Wolff said.

"You haven't got the extra modes that you may decide or not to deploy in the race to overtake, and that is valid for all the small teams as for the big teams.

"I think that the race is a consequence of that decision."
(https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... n=widget-1)

but some weeks ago he used to say that they would have had more power at race:
“I think we don’t lack performance on Saturdays. We had until now quite a margin. We struggled in some of the races where we were quite limited in powerful engine modes, and if F1 were to ban in-season certain power unit modes, then I think it will actually help us in the race.

“If you can avoid damaging your power unit in those few qualifying laps that you have available, in Q3 and then the odd lap in the race, the damage metrics goes down dramatically.

“So five laps of quali mode not being done gives us 25 laps of more performance in the race, and that is something we believe will give us more performance.

“You must take into effect even if it may hurt us more in qualifying, which I’m not sure, and it’s a couple of tenths, then it will hurt all the others in the same way.

“But for us, we are always very marginal on what we can extract from the power unit, and if we were to be limited in qualifying modes, then well, we will be stronger in the race.”
(https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... f/4860037/)
I don’t think he contradicts himself... They were stronger in the race (Hamilton’s gap to Sainz was huge before the first safety car)... Hamilton also managed to carve his way through the field after been 23 seconds behind the whole grid with roughly half the race to go, to finish 7th after that shows how strong the Mercedes were.
Exactly, it's all posturing from Toto. You can also bet that every time they choose to mention engine modes over the radio that is not an accident and to send a message about how this will 'ruin the show', etc.

Hamilton caught and passed half the field with the same lack of overtaking modes and power that makes it hard to overtake. I think most of the lack of overtaking - excluding this enormouse example of lots of delta-v and overtaking - was obvioulsy Monza and the dynamics of these cars.

One thing other teams would have observed with interest is Hamilton's pace in clear air catching the back of the pack. We know in that sustained catching phase he would have been SOC neutral - i.e. no 'overtake' button which borrows energy from the future. I bet many teams now know a bit more about the baseline / constant mode PU power of Merc than they did before, which is from my side, the best effect of this regulation (that it makes it easier for PU manufacturers to know about the true performance of their competitors)

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henry
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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nzjrs wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:33 pm

Hamilton caught and passed half the field with the same lack of overtaking modes and power that makes it hard to overtake. I think most of the lack of overtaking - excluding this enormouse example of lots of delta-v and overtaking - was obvioulsy Monza and the dynamics of these cars.
He did however have a different tyre fitment. The long runs in practise showed the Hard tyre to be as quick, if not quicker, than the medium. It’s likely handicap was the time taken to get it up to its operating point would make it vulnerable to those using it in a close pack running in dirty air. Hamilton had clear air to work with. It seemed to me that as he moved forward through the pack the overtakes got easier as the Hard’s durability came in to play. Ocon in particular, running on the Soft’s was completely defenceless.

IMHO the Mercedes is undoubtedly very very quick, but to show its speed under the new regulation it needs clear air. Without that its performance advantage can’t be used unless there’s a further advantage such as the tyres.

I would suggest that Raikkonen dropped back rapidly but because he was in an inferior car with much inferior tyres.
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SiLo
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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nzjrs wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:33 pm
SmallSoldier wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:32 pm
Xwang wrote:Today Wolf starts complaining about the one engine map rule:
"We always said that, you create one power mode for the whole race means that you haven't got the extra spice to overtake," Wolff said.

"You haven't got the extra modes that you may decide or not to deploy in the race to overtake, and that is valid for all the small teams as for the big teams.

"I think that the race is a consequence of that decision."
(https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... n=widget-1)

but some weeks ago he used to say that they would have had more power at race:
“I think we don’t lack performance on Saturdays. We had until now quite a margin. We struggled in some of the races where we were quite limited in powerful engine modes, and if F1 were to ban in-season certain power unit modes, then I think it will actually help us in the race.

“If you can avoid damaging your power unit in those few qualifying laps that you have available, in Q3 and then the odd lap in the race, the damage metrics goes down dramatically.

“So five laps of quali mode not being done gives us 25 laps of more performance in the race, and that is something we believe will give us more performance.

“You must take into effect even if it may hurt us more in qualifying, which I’m not sure, and it’s a couple of tenths, then it will hurt all the others in the same way.

“But for us, we are always very marginal on what we can extract from the power unit, and if we were to be limited in qualifying modes, then well, we will be stronger in the race.”
(https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/merc ... f/4860037/)
I don’t think he contradicts himself... They were stronger in the race (Hamilton’s gap to Sainz was huge before the first safety car)... Hamilton also managed to carve his way through the field after been 23 seconds behind the whole grid with roughly half the race to go, to finish 7th after that shows how strong the Mercedes were.
Exactly, it's all posturing from Toto. You can also bet that every time they choose to mention engine modes over the radio that is not an accident and to send a message about how this will 'ruin the show', etc.

Hamilton caught and passed half the field with the same lack of overtaking modes and power that makes it hard to overtake. I think most of the lack of overtaking - excluding this enormouse example of lots of delta-v and overtaking - was obvioulsy Monza and the dynamics of these cars.

One thing other teams would have observed with interest is Hamilton's pace in clear air catching the back of the pack. We know in that sustained catching phase he would have been SOC neutral - i.e. no 'overtake' button which borrows energy from the future. I bet many teams now know a bit more about the baseline / constant mode PU power of Merc than they did before, which is from my side, the best effect of this regulation (that it makes it easier for PU manufacturers to know about the true performance of their competitors)
Posturing for what? He simply states that it will give them more performance in the race. He makes a valid point that the engine modes can really help with an overtake, attacking or defending.
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