Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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godlameroso
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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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S tier: Generational talents who can make magic happen.
Verstappen
Russell
Hamilton
LeClerc
Alonso

A tier: Very fast, very consistent drivers who make few mistakes and take advantage of all opportunities, good race craft, and spatial awareness.
Ricciardo may be OP A tier, or low S tier.
Gasley
Sainz
Albon
Maybe Norris, if he takes a step forward.

B tier: Very fast, somewhat inconsistent, and can be unbeatable on their day, but missing that little extra that higher tiers possess.
Norris(straddling between A and B, but he has time and potential)
Raikkonen
Magnussen
Grosjean
Vettel
Kvyat
Giovinazzi
Perez
Bottas
Ocon(straddling between B and the tier below, IMO) not his driving, but his attitude.
Vandoorne also belongs here.

Muppet tier: Mostly there because of money.
Stroll
Latifi

The tiers are in order but the names are in no particular order, although they may show my prejudice.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

selvam_e2002
selvam_e2002
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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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I would say, don't judge the driver who stick with single team.

1. Alonso and Hamilton( I doubt if Alonso is not Ham team mate in 2007, he would not get this much experience)
2. Kimi, DRick
3. Vettel,Max and Lecrec are same.

Giovinazzi -- total waste
Grosjean and Magussen are some how okay may be 10th place

Max and Lecrec are sticking with single team and they don't have challenging co driver in their team.

Remember in 2010 and 2013 everyone praised Vettel is next MSchumacher what happened now? So, Please don't judge the driver based on their current team. for example, Max sticking with Rb for past 4+years and Lecrec sticking with Ferrari for past 2+ years(including sister team)

So, once Max come out from comfortable zone i.e. move out from RB to non competitive team, then we can see what a driver can do.

example: Bottas, he was with williams but not shined, and once jump into Mercedes, he is winning
Vettel: 2010 to 2013 he is on top however once rule changed he could adopt the car

the above are applicable for current drivers because they are still using V6 era, so, it is difficult to predict.

Mclarensenna
Mclarensenna
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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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Verstappen
Ricciardo
Hamilton
Leclerc
Russel
Norris
Saintz
Gasly
Perez
Ocon
Bottas
Magnussen
Albon
Kvyat
Grosjean
Stroll
Vettel
Raikkonen
Latifi
Giovinazzi

DChemTech
DChemTech
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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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selvam_e2002 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:12 am
I would say, don't judge the driver who stick with single team.

1. Alonso and Hamilton( I doubt if Alonso is not Ham team mate in 2007, he would not get this much experience)
2. Kimi, DRick
3. Vettel,Max and Lecrec are same.

Giovinazzi -- total waste
Grosjean and Magussen are some how okay may be 10th place

Max and Lecrec are sticking with single team and they don't have challenging co driver in their team.

Remember in 2010 and 2013 everyone praised Vettel is next MSchumacher what happened now? So, Please don't judge the driver based on their current team. for example, Max sticking with Rb for past 4+years and Lecrec sticking with Ferrari for past 2+ years(including sister team)

So, once Max come out from comfortable zone i.e. move out from RB to non competitive team, then we can see what a driver can do.

example: Bottas, he was with williams but not shined, and once jump into Mercedes, he is winning
Vettel: 2010 to 2013 he is on top however once rule changed he could adopt the car

the above are applicable for current drivers because they are still using V6 era, so, it is difficult to predict.
Selvam, I'm a bit puzzled by your assessment of Bottas. You say he did not shine in the williams, and jumped up in the Mercedes. I disagree. If anything, he did very well at Williams - he managed to take a team in decline to the podium many times, generously beating his teammate (post-crash Massa is not the greatest driver, but still). In the Mercedes, of course he wins races. Any driver should win races in that thing. Yet, he only does so if Hamilton is not fully in the game. He hardly ever manages to challenge on pure pace in that machine (in the race). With that, he does what Mercedes needs him to do, but I would not say he's shining now. Quite the contrary.

selvam_e2002
selvam_e2002
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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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DChemTech wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:51 am
selvam_e2002 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:12 am
I would say, don't judge the driver who stick with single team.

1. Alonso and Hamilton( I doubt if Alonso is not Ham team mate in 2007, he would not get this much experience)
2. Kimi, DRick
3. Vettel,Max and Lecrec are same.

Giovinazzi -- total waste
Grosjean and Magussen are some how okay may be 10th place

Max and Lecrec are sticking with single team and they don't have challenging co driver in their team.

Remember in 2010 and 2013 everyone praised Vettel is next MSchumacher what happened now? So, Please don't judge the driver based on their current team. for example, Max sticking with Rb for past 4+years and Lecrec sticking with Ferrari for past 2+ years(including sister team)

So, once Max come out from comfortable zone i.e. move out from RB to non competitive team, then we can see what a driver can do.

example: Bottas, he was with williams but not shined, and once jump into Mercedes, he is winning
Vettel: 2010 to 2013 he is on top however once rule changed he could adopt the car

the above are applicable for current drivers because they are still using V6 era, so, it is difficult to predict.
Selvam, I'm a bit puzzled by your assessment of Bottas. You say he did not shine in the williams, and jumped up in the Mercedes. I disagree. If anything, he did very well at Williams - he managed to take a team in decline to the podium many times, generously beating his teammate (post-crash Massa is not the greatest driver, but still). In the Mercedes, of course he wins races. Any driver should win races in that thing. Yet, he only does so if Hamilton is not fully in the game. He hardly ever manages to challenge on pure pace in that machine (in the race). With that, he does what Mercedes needs him to do, but I would not say he's shining now. Quite the contrary.
I meant Bottas not "shining" like where he is in. :)

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El Scorchio
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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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Hamilton
Verstappen
Leclerc
Ricciardo
Bottas
Russell
Gasly
Sainz
Perez
Norris
Stroll
Albon
Vettel
Ocon
Raikkonen
Kvyat
Giovinazzi
Magnussen
Grosjean
Latifi

In that order.

Top 4 are pretty straightforward, but TBH you can throw a blanket over the midfield to an extent between Gasly and Stroll. It's difficult to really differentiate and on another day I might go another way and it could look a bit different. Vettel looks low, but as it's 'current' ability I have to go on that which unfortunately is very unfavourable for him and I think there are mitigating circumstances. If it were all these drivers 'at their best', he'd be much higher.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:18 am
Based on points per salary dollar, Norris is well clear of the field:

Lando Norris 65 2 32.5
Alexander Albon 63 2.5 25.2
Pierre Gasly 43 2 21.5
Lance Stroll 57 3 19
Valtteri Bottas 135 8 16.875
Esteban Ocon 30 5 6
Sergio Perez 44 8 5.5
Carlos Sainz 41 8 5.125
Daniil Kvyat 10 2 5
Charles Leclerc 49 10 4.9
Lewis Hamilton 190 40 4.75
Max Verstappen 110 25 4.4
Daniel Ricciardo 53 20 2.65
Antonio Giovinazzi 2 1 2
Sebastian Vettel 17 30 0.566666667
Kimi Räikkönen 2 5 0.4
Kevin Magnussen 1 5 0.2
Nicholas Latifi 0 1 0
George Russell 0 1 0
Romain Grosjean 0 7 0

Sorry about the formatting, did it all on my phone, including Excel for the calculation.
Interesting views. So the guys at the top of the distribution have a strong case to negotiate some more moolah for their next contracts (GAS to NOR) and the guys at the lower end are either under performing or overpaid fat cats lol Interesting that Bottas is right in the middle :idea:
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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Scorpaguy wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:41 am
1. Max
2. Ham

Next tier

3. Ric
4. Lec

Next tier

5. Vet
6. Bot

Next tier

8. Kimi
9. Rus

Next tier

10. Norris
11. Albon
12. Sainz
13. Perez
14. Stroll

Next tier

15. Gasley
16. Kvyat
17. KMag
18. Grosjean

Next tier

19. Giovinazzi
20. Latifi
Interesting.. I like this one.. not for raw pace.. but for reliability of results.
Not driving a Mercedes? Work harder!

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ME4ME
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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:11 pm
Hamilton
Verstappen
Leclerc
Ricciardo
Bottas
Russell
Gasly
Sainz
Perez
Norris
Stroll
Albon
Vettel
Ocon
Raikkonen
Kvyat
Giovinazzi
Magnussen
Grosjean
Latifi

In that order.

Top 4 are pretty straightforward, but TBH you can throw a blanket over the midfield to an extent between Gasly and Stroll. It's difficult to really differentiate and on another day I might go another way and it could look a bit different. Vettel looks low, but as it's 'current' ability I have to go on that which unfortunately is very unfavourable for him and I think there are mitigating circumstances. If it were all these drivers 'at their best', he'd be much higher.
People can never agree on these things, but I think thats a pretty good list. I'd go for that.

Russel is really hard to judge though. How good is he really on a sunday? He hasn't been able to show that because of his machinery. Chance is, he'll be good just as Ricciardo surpiced Red Bull when he came from Toro Rosso and suddenly proved that the one aspect they doubted him upon he was strong at: close racing. At this time I wouldn't put him above Sainz though, who I think has performed well but has had some terrible luck.

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El Scorchio
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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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ME4ME wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:20 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:11 pm
Hamilton
Verstappen
Leclerc
Ricciardo
Bottas
Russell
Gasly
Sainz
Perez
Norris
Stroll
Albon
Vettel
Ocon
Raikkonen
Kvyat
Giovinazzi
Magnussen
Grosjean
Latifi

In that order.

Top 4 are pretty straightforward, but TBH you can throw a blanket over the midfield to an extent between Gasly and Stroll. It's difficult to really differentiate and on another day I might go another way and it could look a bit different. Vettel looks low, but as it's 'current' ability I have to go on that which unfortunately is very unfavourable for him and I think there are mitigating circumstances. If it were all these drivers 'at their best', he'd be much higher.
People can never agree on these things, but I think thats a pretty good list. I'd go for that.

Russel is really hard to judge though. How good is he really on a sunday? He hasn't been able to show that because of his machinery. Chance is, he'll be good just as Ricciardo surpiced Red Bull when he came from Toro Rosso and suddenly proved that the one aspect they doubted him upon he was strong at: close racing. At this time I wouldn't put him above Sainz though, who I think has performed well but has had some terrible luck.
Thanks! Actually Russell was by far the hardest to place basically for the reasons you listed. You could either put him where I have or anywhere to below Norris. I may have been a bit too generous to him but my reasoning was basically his potential and speed as shown on Saturdays, and regularly, hugely outperforming his teammates and his car. He's not had much of a chance to race wheel to wheel as of yet!

Sainz again was tricky. He has had some bad luck, but I do really rate him and I like him. Could easily make an argument for him to be fifth rather than seventh. Gasly, Perez and Norris are the other ones who could easily sit a little differently to what I did depending on race to race performance.

DChemTech
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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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Agree on Russell, or generally, backmarkers. You can judge who's a poor driver in a poor car, but it's hard to judge who is a good driver in a poor car, because they rarely get into conditions where they can really excel.

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Big Tea
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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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DChemTech wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:38 pm
Agree on Russel, or generally, backmarkers. You can judge who's a poor driver in a poor car, but it's hard to judge who is a good driver in a poor car, because they rarely get into conditions where they can really excel.
Rob kubica could have been just as good as ever, or really poor after his accident, we do not know.
All George can do is beat who ever is there.

Looking at Latifi's record, I would struggle to place him in 'just good' category. This is of course in other series, and I don't know who his competition was, but there would seem to be half a dozen of them in each series.
Again, All George can do is beat him.

Without a known opponent it is very hard to judge, but I would guess at him being at least upper mid field. Then again, that has no proof.
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So watch your feet.

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214270
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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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Big Tea wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:47 pm
DChemTech wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:38 pm
Agree on Russel, or generally, backmarkers. You can judge who's a poor driver in a poor car, but it's hard to judge who is a good driver in a poor car, because they rarely get into conditions where they can really excel.
Rob kubica could have been just as good as ever, or really poor after his accident, we do not know.
All George can do is beat who ever is there.

Looking at Latifi's record, I would struggle to place him in 'just good' category. This is of course in other series, and I don't know who his competition was, but there would seem to be half a dozen of them in each series.
Again, All George can do is beat him.

Without a known opponent it is very hard to judge, but I would guess at him being at least upper mid field. Then again, that has no proof.
But that’s the point isn’t it...KUB was the only one that scored for the team last year and this year (I assume it’s not random and some form of weighting has been applied to the standings) LAT is listed as 19th with RUS 20th. As for quali, KUB is not/was not an F1 talent at the time I’m sorry to say and LAT is pretty much at the bottom of everyone’s list...that tells you all you need to know.

Instead of this fanciful, hopes & dreams stuff he should be properly rated; which should be low until he shows otherwise.
The name’s Hondo...

Wynters
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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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Worth remembering that Leclerc has only two seasons in F1 and has somehow got a car that is running sixth in the WCC (only just in front of AlphaTauri and well adrift of the rest) onto the podium. Twice. He also went to the most high pressure team on the grid, after only one year in F1, and with a 4xWDC winner already firmly and safely positioned there as the publicly acknowledged number 1...and kicked him out within the year.

He's still making occasional stupid mistakes but he's young and inexperienced and that's to be expected. If can iron those out whilst continuing to learn... he's going to be very special indeed.

Of course, this is a topic on 'current', rather than 'future' ability, but there have been some outstanding performances in that dog of a car.

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Big Tea
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Re: Current driver ability (personal opinion)

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214270 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:16 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:47 pm
DChemTech wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:38 pm
Agree on Russel, or generally, backmarkers. You can judge who's a poor driver in a poor car, but it's hard to judge who is a good driver in a poor car, because they rarely get into conditions where they can really excel.
Rob kubica could have been just as good as ever, or really poor after his accident, we do not know.
All George can do is beat who ever is there.

Looking at Latifi's record, I would struggle to place him in 'just good' category. This is of course in other series, and I don't know who his competition was, but there would seem to be half a dozen of them in each series.
Again, All George can do is beat him.

Without a known opponent it is very hard to judge, but I would guess at him being at least upper mid field. Then again, that has no proof.
But that’s the point isn’t it...KUB was the only one that scored for the team last year and this year (I assume it’s not random and some form of weighting has been applied to the standings) LAT is listed as 19th with RUS 20th. As for quali, KUB is not/was not an F1 talent at the time I’m sorry to say and LAT is pretty much at the bottom of everyone’s list...that tells you all you need to know.

Instead of this fanciful, hopes & dreams stuff he should be properly rated; which should be low until he shows otherwise.

The only fly in the ointment with this, is Russel's performance when he tested for Merc. I know it was not racing, but still impressive.

Also his Career summary looks good (thanks wiki)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Ru ... ng_driver)
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So watch your feet.