Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Wass85
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Diesel wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:41 pm
Maybe... just maybe it could work, IF they awarded points for every place gained during the reverse grid sprint. For example, Hamilton might start at the back as the current WDC leader, but in "qualifying" he gains 10 places so is awarded 10 points and starts the race in 10th position. If he wins the race he nets 35 points for the whole weekend. At least then you are rewarding overtaking, rather than trying to artificially handicap the better cars and drivers.

EDIT: Although it does mean you'll get a WDC who probably didn't win the most races... might need to think about how many points are awarded during qualifying, perhaps a cap or 1 point per 2 positions or something.

EDIT2: The thing is, as a fan, I want to see what an F1 car can do in qualifying trim, I want to see a balls out absolutely nothing held back lap. Senna's qualifying laps are legendary...
So you're basically saying you want my race format? 😉

Just_a_fan
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:10 pm
There could be enough tire delta to promote overtaking, in addition, we will probably see more under / overcuts, the strategies will probably be more diverse in terms of when and for what compound to pit and with tires that are supposed to last for shorter stints, the drivers potentially will be able to push more during the race...
Hmmm, could, probably, probably, supposed, potentially. Lots of "maybe". So total finger in the air stuff then.
Simple, effective and fair for all teams
Except the teams that have done a good job, of course. It's " fair" for those teams that have done a poor job. They'll love it.


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strad
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Have they watched a local NASCAR race where they use the inverted field ? In those races the more action is caused by accidents and incidents. Is that what they/we want? Hamilton or Bottas or Max wrecked or otherwise knocked out of races by would be back markers getting in the way wrecking and fighting for positions from the top drivers and cars?
Those with better memories would have to remind me of the race a while back where many were angry over some back marker fighting overly hard against the leader coming thru and caused an incident.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

SmallSoldier
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Just_a_fan wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:10 pm
There could be enough tire delta to promote overtaking, in addition, we will probably see more under / overcuts, the strategies will probably be more diverse in terms of when and for what compound to pit and with tires that are supposed to last for shorter stints, the drivers potentially will be able to push more during the race...
Hmmm, could, probably, probably, supposed, potentially. Lots of "maybe". So total finger in the air stuff then.
Simple, effective and fair for all teams
Except the teams that have done a good job, of course. It's " fair" for those teams that have done a poor job. They'll love it.


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[/quote]
??? I don’t understand your comment... Any potential change to the current format implies a could, probably, supposed, potentially and lots of maybes unless of course you have a crystal ball? If you do, please send it over, I have some cash to invest in the stock market.

Why isn’t it fair to the teams that have done a good job? How are they penalized? They will still start at the front, they will still build a gap to the rest... It will be the same rules of engagement and not that different than forcing one stop today... The only things that it helps with is minimizing the tire management they have to do today... Teams avoid the 2-Stop because even if their pace would compensate for the time loss in the pits, it’s the fact that they have to overtake other cars and the loss in time that it implies that deters they from doing so.

Make it mandatory to stop twice and even if you don’t get more overtakes because of tire delta, even if you don’t have more under and overcuts or more strategic options or any of the other “potential benefits”, you at least won’t have as much tire management as you have today and that’s a good thing


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Diesel
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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strad wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:16 am
Have they watched a local NASCAR race where they use the inverted field ? In those races the more action is caused by accidents and incidents. Is that what they/we want? Hamilton or Bottas or Max wrecked or otherwise knocked out of races by would be back markers getting in the way wrecking and fighting for positions from the top drivers and cars?
Those with better memories would have to remind me of the race a while back where many were angry over some back marker fighting overly hard against the leader coming thru and caused an incident.
Isn't that basically what the last race was? A giant wreck. So exciting! (sarcasm)
"Unbelievable how silly this Formula 1 is these days, with this stupid overtakes."
—Sebastian Vettel, 2012 US GP

Just_a_fan
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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strad wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:16 am

Those with better memories would have to remind me of the race a while back where many were angry over some back marker fighting overly hard against the leader coming thru and caused an incident.
Do you mean the Ocon / Verstappen incident in Brazil in 2018?
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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El Scorchio
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:17 am
strad wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:16 am

Those with better memories would have to remind me of the race a while back where many were angry over some back marker fighting overly hard against the leader coming thru and caused an incident.
Do you mean the Ocon / Verstappen incident in Brazil in 2018?
Stupid of Ocon to go for the move, stupud of Max not to let the faster car which he wasn't even racing go past.

Both come out of that looking like idiots. Especially when one takes it out of the cockpit and lays his hands on the other afterwards.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:41 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:17 am
strad wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:16 am

Those with better memories would have to remind me of the race a while back where many were angry over some back marker fighting overly hard against the leader coming thru and caused an incident.
Do you mean the Ocon / Verstappen incident in Brazil in 2018?
Stupid of Ocon to go for the move, stupud of Max not to let the faster car which he wasn't even racing go past.

Both come out of that looking like idiots. Especially when one takes it out of the cockpit and lays his hands on the other afterwards.
Ocon was perfectly within his rights to unlap himself. Max didn't have to close the door on him. A right-thinking race leader would have stayed way out of Ocon's way and let him go. It was a battle of egos but Max let his get in the way of a win. I doubt he'll do it again.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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El Scorchio
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:55 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:41 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:17 am

Do you mean the Ocon / Verstappen incident in Brazil in 2018?
Stupid of Ocon to go for the move, stupud of Max not to let the faster car which he wasn't even racing go past.

Both come out of that looking like idiots. Especially when one takes it out of the cockpit and lays his hands on the other afterwards.
Ocon was perfectly within his rights to unlap himself. Max didn't have to close the door on him. A right-thinking race leader would have stayed way out of Ocon's way and let him go. It was a battle of egos but Max let his get in the way of a win. I doubt he'll do it again.
I do agree actually. I should have said stupid for Ocon to go for the move 'there'- meaning at that particular spot of the track, but you are right. He was perfectly Ok to unlap himself and he has to think of his own race. He maybe just didn't choose the smartest place to do it.

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NathanOlder
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:57 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:55 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:41 pm


Stupid of Ocon to go for the move, stupud of Max not to let the faster car which he wasn't even racing go past.

Both come out of that looking like idiots. Especially when one takes it out of the cockpit and lays his hands on the other afterwards.
Ocon was perfectly within his rights to unlap himself. Max didn't have to close the door on him. A right-thinking race leader would have stayed way out of Ocon's way and let him go. It was a battle of egos but Max let his get in the way of a win. I doubt he'll do it again.
I do agree actually. I should have said stupid for Ocon to go for the move 'there'- meaning at that particular spot of the track, but you are right. He was perfectly Ok to unlap himself and he has to think of his own race. He maybe just didn't choose the smartest place to do it.
He probably decided there and then, right after Max blocked him with a defensive move in to turn 1.
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gshevlin
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Reverse grid races are an explicit admission that the current generation of F1 cars cannot be raced a lot of the time on most current circuits.
Until the aero configurations of the cars are changed to support close following, overtaking will only be possible if cars have widely disparate basic performance, different tyres, or if DRS is in use.
The 2022 aero rules have to address aero disruption, or F1 will slowly slide out of relevance.

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Big Tea
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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gshevlin wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:39 pm
Reverse grid races are an explicit admission that the current generation of F1 cars cannot be raced a lot of the time on most current circuits.
Until the aero configurations of the cars are changed to support close following, overtaking will only be possible if cars have widely disparate basic performance, different tyres, or if DRS is in use.
The 2022 aero rules have to address aero disruption, or F1 will slowly slide out of relevance.
The best way to do this, is to have the cars prepared to fight close quarter. To me, the obvious way is to downgrade the blue flag to its original (pre Schumacher crying) intention of look out, faster cars are catching you, do not impede them (but no need to immediately ruin your race by diving off the track in 3 posts)

The leading cars would then have the option of being flying machines who catch the back markers in 4 laps, and have to drag them on the straight, or make a car that can fight against a car so slow you are lapping it already. A car that can carve through traffic can then chase the flying machine that went into the distance, and possibly catch it and race.

Passing cars has almost always been part of racing.

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siskue2005
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Big Tea wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:17 pm
gshevlin wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:39 pm
Reverse grid races are an explicit admission that the current generation of F1 cars cannot be raced a lot of the time on most current circuits.
Until the aero configurations of the cars are changed to support close following, overtaking will only be possible if cars have widely disparate basic performance, different tyres, or if DRS is in use.
The 2022 aero rules have to address aero disruption, or F1 will slowly slide out of relevance.
The best way to do this, is to have the cars prepared to fight close quarter. To me, the obvious way is to downgrade the blue flag to its original (pre Schumacher crying) intention of look out, faster cars are catching you, do not impede them (but no need to immediately ruin your race by diving off the track in 3 posts)
Pre Schumcaher crying? what is that?

gshevlin
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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The reason why slower drivers are expected to get out of the way when shown a blue flag is a direct consequence of the reality that the cars cannot race each other. The "move over" rule became the norm because front-running drivers, on many circuits, cannot get past lapped drivers if (a) they don't want to let the leaders past (b) they are in a battle with other drivers for position.
If the cars can be raced, then the blue flag should revert to being a notification of a faster car behind, not a "move over" instruction. If the drivers are top drivers in a faster car, then they should be able to pass the slower car. Make them do the work to show why they are top drivers in a better car.

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Big Tea
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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siskue2005 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:48 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:17 pm
gshevlin wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:39 pm
Reverse grid races are an explicit admission that the current generation of F1 cars cannot be raced a lot of the time on most current circuits.
Until the aero configurations of the cars are changed to support close following, overtaking will only be possible if cars have widely disparate basic performance, different tyres, or if DRS is in use.
The 2022 aero rules have to address aero disruption, or F1 will slowly slide out of relevance.
The best way to do this, is to have the cars prepared to fight close quarter. To me, the obvious way is to downgrade the blue flag to its original (pre Schumacher crying) intention of look out, faster cars are catching you, do not impede them (but no need to immediately ruin your race by diving off the track in 3 posts)
Pre Schumcaher crying? what is that?
Schumacher spent much time on the radio in his Ferrari days complaining of being held up by back markers. Until then it was up to the driver to get past, as did drivers like Mansel, Stewart etc. Seb Vettel did it a lot too as did Alonso.
The radio was full of 'blue flags, blue flags where are the blue flags' so eventually the pass 3 marshal posts if someone is within a mile of you and get a drive through became the norm
I am very much in favour of filtered water. Preferably passed through a brewery