[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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mem wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:16 pm
Manoah2u wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:18 pm
I wonder how long RedBull will keep their patience.
or what ?
Or we're going to have a repeat of their fallout with Cyril.
The thing is, despite the fact they have no other option than Honda,
that doesn't mean their patiance will last indefinately.

After all, Max is running out of patience, and they haven't got ANY driver of his capacity to fill the void with.
Rumours keep growing around Newey moving to Aston Martin.

These elements will only increase 'demand' from RB to Honda to provide them with something that'll 'save the day'.

There's a difference in having some minor issues, and their star driver getting DNF after DNF.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

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etusch
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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TNTHead wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:28 pm
I agree that the formula is oriented toward PU, but it is still not the case that only Mercedes powered cars are at the front (look at Williams...). So lets be fair PU-chassis wise for performance it's not 100%-0% but more 60%-40%. That still means that with a superior chassis you can claw back some of performance deficit induced by the PU (which RB has been doing the past years). Problem at the moment is that Merc is not only with their PU on top but also with their chassis (and with reliability). So starting all over again with chassis in 2022 there is hope that there will be at least some performance leveling.

So management wise one could say that the Key Performance Indicators for the car are PU, Chassis and Reliability. Besides that of course driver and team operation. Obviously on all three car aspects RB has room for improvement.
completely agree with you. If Redbull can produce a chassis at same level of mercedes and if we assume drivers also at same level, then pu will make change for the benefit of mercedes at this situation. I think at same level of chassis verstappen can make difference. With a slightly better chassis Redbull will be champion.
There is one thing more. if mercedes has too big power advantage and if they use it to have bigger wings to be faster at turns, then Honda can supply redbull with power to allow redbull to use bigger wings to do same with mercedes and maybe it changes the game. So still Honda has potential to add more speed to redbull. I hope they will provide this but they need to be a bit more aggressive. Maybe they would if it weren't freezed.
Everytime I think about these I end up same place, what mercedes doing, what fia doing?

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Big Tea
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Manoah2u wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:34 pm
mem wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:16 pm
Manoah2u wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:18 pm
I wonder how long RedBull will keep their patience.
or what ?
Or we're going to have a repeat of their fallout with Cyril.
The thing is, despite the fact they have no other option than Honda,
that doesn't mean their patiance will last indefinately.

After all, Max is running out of patience, and they haven't got ANY driver of his capacity to fill the void with.
Rumours keep growing around Newey moving to Aston Martin.

These elements will only increase 'demand' from RB to Honda to provide them with something that'll 'save the day'.

There's a difference in having some minor issues, and their star driver getting DNF after DNF.
Max is a very good driver, top 3, no doubt. But looking back over the year, I wonder how many point they would have if say Danny Ric had stayed, possibly Botas there, which would probably mean Gasly would still be there. No way to know, but I don't think they would be much worse off.

By this, I do not mean they should bomb Max out, just how it could possibly have been.
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mem
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Pany wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:56 pm
Mmmm, things are changing fast. I had lot of hope in honda, but after lots of races they are still behind to mercedes. No way for them too. I told many times this is engine based formula. Nothing can be done. Please don't dream 2022 things will change, because these Pu will still be dominant. Mercedes were clever to promote new chassis rules, so that their superiority will keep intact.
are you aware that the 2022 chassis rules meant to simplify things to make other teams catch up specially with the spend cap of 170m$, they may not but RBR with a totla followership of a B team of SAT easily can even better than mercs they have no B team beside i don't really think mercs PU is light years ahead its just ahead.
Manoah2u wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:34 pm
Or we're going to have a repeat of their fallout with Cyril.
The thing is, despite the fact they have no other option than Honda,
that doesn't mean their patiance will last indefinately.

After all, Max is running out of patience, and they haven't got ANY driver of his capacity to fill the void with.
Rumours keep growing around Newey moving to Aston Martin.

These elements will only increase 'demand' from RB to Honda to provide them with something that'll 'save the day'.

There's a difference in having some minor issues, and their star driver getting DNF after DNF.
you are right Honda is totally to blame be them or the electronics provider for them i just don't think things are that ugly Honda PU was very good in 2019 its not hard to see them fix their faults in 2021 given the freeze in 2020.
if Daimler revenue is 180b Honda is 40b shy of that both are giants not to mention Honda joined in 2015 while mercs was researching and developing way before 2014.
iam just saying both RBR and Honda have a good chance in the near future if they focus and up their game and commitment.

velizare
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Manoah2u wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:18 pm
Let's be honest here, the first few corners, then the red flag, then the restart, then the safety car, then the rolling restart, pretty much were the only real 'significant' moments that decided the race. When the 'dust had settled' the GP was far less exciting.

Ifs and Ifs, sure, but let's face it, Max did not get out of the race because of his own mistake, his engine abandoned him. That in itself caused the crash that caused the red flag in the first place.
But looking at Max start, he would definately have had Lewis if his engine didn't fail. Whether he would have finished in front of Lewis is a huge quesiton mark, but at the same time, Bottas again failed under pressure and it's pretty imaginable he would atleast have had Bottas, so P2 would have been a reasonable outcome, I still feel that P1 could have been a very possible outcome.

However, It really doesn't matter much. In the best of Scenarios, Max P1, Lew P2, Bot P3, is most realistic. It would still leave Max in P3 in the standings just behind Bottas, and Lewis with a generous lead.

Max would still need two more wins versus two DNF from Hamilton to bring life back to the title fight.
Not even Bottas is in the title fight anymore, so it really doesn't matter anymore anyway.
A miracle has to happen for the title fight to get back on it's feet, and I honestly don't see that happening.

Don't get me wrong though, this season turns out to be pretty amazing, however it goes down.

But it's sad that once again, the engine is the thing that keeps RedBull from being able to make the difference.
Renault let them down at the start of the V6T era, Honda brought back hope but at the moment still is lacking.

The importance of the engine once again is greatly seen also in the case of Ferrari's demise.

Mercedes keep being in a league of their own. I wonder how long RedBull will keep their patience.
honestly, they shouldn't be inpatient until their chasis remains inferior to mercedes.
rb's place among constructeurs is not in danger. horner and marko both know it. verstappen might be mad, because he would have chance for victory, especially in the last race, but --- happens, and his focus will shift very quick for the next race.

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Marti_EF3
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Honestly, I would get angry too if I'm out of a race where I had chances to win. But after that "hot" moment, keep cool, head down and to the next. I think Max thinks the same way. They are a team, and sometimes one fails, and sometimes the other. Key is to remain all unite and forward

Pany
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Yes I am. I don't like the idea, but as engineer I'm sure mercedes has some kind of secret knowledge in their Pu, nobody can match. Maybe materials treatments to reduce fatigue damage or some other technology. They play with their Pu and many times used it 80 per cent in previous season; no way competition will rise, unless mercedes design a dog car.
mem wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:11 pm
Pany wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:56 pm
Mmmm, things are changing fast. I had lot of hope in honda, but after lots of races they are still behind to mercedes. No way for them too. I told many times this is engine based formula. Nothing can be done. Please don't dream 2022 things will change, because these Pu will still be dominant. Mercedes were clever to promote new chassis rules, so that their superiority will keep intact.
are you aware that the 2022 chassis rules meant to simplify things to make other teams catch up specially with the spend cap of 170m$, they may not but RBR with a totla followership of a B team of SAT easily can even better than mercs they have no B team beside i don't really think mercs PU is light years ahead its just ahead.
Manoah2u wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:34 pm
Or we're going to have a repeat of their fallout with Cyril.
The thing is, despite the fact they have no other option than Honda,
that doesn't mean their patiance will last indefinately.

After all, Max is running out of patience, and they haven't got ANY driver of his capacity to fill the void with.
Rumours keep growing around Newey moving to Aston Martin.

These elements will only increase 'demand' from RB to Honda to provide them with something that'll 'save the day'.

There's a difference in having some minor issues, and their star driver getting DNF after DNF.
you are right Honda is totally to blame be them or the electronics provider for them i just don't think things are that ugly Honda PU was very good in 2019 its not hard to see them fix their faults in 2021 given the freeze in 2020.
if Daimler revenue is 180b Honda is 40b shy of that both are giants not to mention Honda joined in 2015 while mercs was researching and developing way before 2014.
iam just saying both RBR and Honda have a good chance in the near future if they focus and up their game and commitment.

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Juzh
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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verstappen's pre-start procedure, formation lap and start. tbh, not much useful useful information to be had
https://streamable.com/7p0jh8

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Jambier
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Manoah2u wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:34 pm
mem wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:16 pm
Manoah2u wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:18 pm
I wonder how long RedBull will keep their patience.
or what ?
Or we're going to have a repeat of their fallout with Cyril.
The thing is, despite the fact they have no other option than Honda,
that doesn't mean their patiance will last indefinately.

After all, Max is running out of patience, and they haven't got ANY driver of his capacity to fill the void with.
Rumours keep growing around Newey moving to Aston Martin.

These elements will only increase 'demand' from RB to Honda to provide them with something that'll 'save the day'.

There's a difference in having some minor issues, and their star driver getting DNF after DNF.
They have no other choice than Honda, but they also need to understand that their chassis is not at Mercedes level.
Or maybe, they should have make their own engine.

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Big Tea
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Jambier wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:26 am
Manoah2u wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:34 pm
mem wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:16 pm

or what ?
Or we're going to have a repeat of their fallout with Cyril.
The thing is, despite the fact they have no other option than Honda,
that doesn't mean their patiance will last indefinately.

After all, Max is running out of patience, and they haven't got ANY driver of his capacity to fill the void with.
Rumours keep growing around Newey moving to Aston Martin.

These elements will only increase 'demand' from RB to Honda to provide them with something that'll 'save the day'.

There's a difference in having some minor issues, and their star driver getting DNF after DNF.
They have no other choice than Honda, but they also need to understand that their chassis is not at Mercedes level.
Or maybe, they should have make their own engine.
Honda are struggling with all their knowledge and resources still do not have it 100%
If I were Red Bull, I think building my own engine would be too daunting a prospect to consider.

If Honda pulled out, under the new ruling, is it not the builder who supplies the least teams is compelled to fill the gap? So that's back to Renault.
I am very much in favour of filtered water. Preferably passed through a brewery

nzjrs
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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I think the only plausible risk is that Honda themselves do not elect to continue as they currently are (extend their contract), which AFAIK they have still not commited to. We have heard suspiciously little about the 2020 covid derived unplanned engine freeze and how this can be 'remedied' in 2021, which if I was them, would have hampered me greatly. I think there must be some serious negotiations going on behind closed doors between the PU manufacturers and FIA/FOM concerning engine parity, tokens, closing the field, etc.

The only choices RB has on the table are; a closer working relationship with Honda, no working relationship with Honda, or just having stready hands and holding the current course. I think many people forget that often doing nothing and not overreacting is often the most sensible thing to do.

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Wouter
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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nzjrs wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:17 am
I think many people forget that often doing nothing and not overreacting is often the most sensible thing to do.
Exactly!!
First, let's wait and see what will happen in the coming weeks.
Honda was definitely on the right track and the chassis was getting better too.

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Big Tea
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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nzjrs wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:17 am
I think the only plausible risk is that Honda themselves do not elect to continue as they currently are (extend their contract), which AFAIK they have still not commited to. We have heard suspiciously little about the 2020 covid derived unplanned engine freeze and how this can be 'remedied' in 2021, which if I was them, would have hampered me greatly. I think there must be some serious negotiations going on behind closed doors between the PU manufacturers and FIA/FOM concerning engine parity, tokens, closing the field, etc.

The only choices RB has on the table are; a closer working relationship with Honda, no working relationship with Honda, or just having stready hands and holding the current course. I think many people forget that often doing nothing and not overreacting is often the most sensible thing to do.
I think Honda value wins far more than podiums, quite understandably, bit equally value a reliability reputation.
This puts them in a position of not wanting to turn the engine up to 10 for reliability and losing a little from the race position.

This is straight forward in some races, we are not going to catch Merc, so go fro reliable over strong.
Then we get some outlayers as we have had and it comes to the frying pan or the fire.
Had we turned the engine up last time, we would have been in with a chance, had we not turned it up this time we would have been there at the end and had a chance. Damned if you do-Damned if you don't
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JordanMugen
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Manoah2u wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 4:18 pm
But it's sad that once again, the engine is the thing that keeps RedBull from being able to make the difference.
Renault let them down at the start of the V6T era, Honda brought back hope but at the moment still is lacking.

The importance of the engine once again is greatly seen also in the case of Ferrari's demise.

Mercedes keep being in a league of their own. I wonder how long RedBull will keep their patience.
>> Mercedes-Benz will not supply customer power units to Red Bull Racing

Yes Red Bull would accept the Mercedes units at a fair commercial rate and they would be better than the Honda units, but Mercedes-Benz simply will not supply them to Red Bull...

So there is nothing for Red Bull to be impatient about! There is simply no choice for Red Bull to have Mercedes power units even if they want them.

The Honda units are free which is good for Red Bull, the Renault units are not all that much better and would be expensive, while the Ferrari units would also be expensive and are clearly worse than Honda or Renault. Out of the three options, Honda is indeed a good choice. :wink:
Last edited by JordanMugen on Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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JordanMugen
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Manoah2u wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:34 pm
Or we're going to have a repeat of their fallout with Cyril.
The thing is, despite the fact they have no other option than Honda,
that doesn't mean their patiance will last indefinately.

These elements will only increase 'demand' from RB to Honda to provide them with something that'll 'save the day'.
'Demand' -- what use is that? Red Bull are welcome to fund power unit research and send dossiers and developments to Honda. =D>

There's a difference in having some minor issues, and their star driver getting DNF after DNF.
:roll:

There is the occasional DNF which happened to effect Verstappen instead of Albon or Kvyat this time. "That's motor racing".

Red Bull are within the regulations to develop their own power unit (as Mercedes and Ferrari), but they have consistently felt the task is too difficult and/or too expensive. :)