[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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JordanMugen
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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nzjrs wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:17 am
The only choices RB has on the table are; a closer working relationship with Honda, no working relationship with Honda, or just having stready hands and holding the current course.
How about the value of the continually excellent Renault customer power unit? That would provide Red Bull Racing with a good power unit at a fair commercial rate. :)

On the one hand, could it be said that Red Bull - Renault (and later Red Bull - Honda) underestimated the challenge of Mercedes GP since the beginning of the hybrid era, but on the other hand could it be said, that if Mercedes GP was not in the sport, Red Bull may have continued to be a championship contender? :wtf:
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Last edited by JordanMugen on Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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etusch
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Big Tea wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:26 am
nzjrs wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:17 am
I think the only plausible risk is that Honda themselves do not elect to continue as they currently are (extend their contract), which AFAIK they have still not commited to. We have heard suspiciously little about the 2020 covid derived unplanned engine freeze and how this can be 'remedied' in 2021, which if I was them, would have hampered me greatly. I think there must be some serious negotiations going on behind closed doors between the PU manufacturers and FIA/FOM concerning engine parity, tokens, closing the field, etc.

The only choices RB has on the table are; a closer working relationship with Honda, no working relationship with Honda, or just having stready hands and holding the current course. I think many people forget that often doing nothing and not overreacting is often the most sensible thing to do.
I think Honda value wins far more than podiums, quite understandably, bit equally value a reliability reputation.
This puts them in a position of not wanting to turn the engine up to 10 for reliability and losing a little from the race position.

This is straight forward in some races, we are not going to catch Merc, so go fro reliable over strong.
Then we get some outlayers as we have had and it comes to the frying pan or the fire.
Had we turned the engine up last time, we would have been in with a chance, had we not turned it up this time we would have been there at the end and had a chance. Damned if you do-Damned if you don't
they give importance to reliability maybe more than needed. probably because of McLaren years and because of why Redbull had problems with Renault.
They were aiming mercedes level this year if not first part of season, with spec 2.0. But mercedes came up more performance. Infact there is nothing wrong there but unexpected development of a rival.

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Mudflap
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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etusch wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:13 am
Big Tea wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:26 am
nzjrs wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:17 am
I think the only plausible risk is that Honda themselves do not elect to continue as they currently are (extend their contract), which AFAIK they have still not commited to. We have heard suspiciously little about the 2020 covid derived unplanned engine freeze and how this can be 'remedied' in 2021, which if I was them, would have hampered me greatly. I think there must be some serious negotiations going on behind closed doors between the PU manufacturers and FIA/FOM concerning engine parity, tokens, closing the field, etc.

The only choices RB has on the table are; a closer working relationship with Honda, no working relationship with Honda, or just having stready hands and holding the current course. I think many people forget that often doing nothing and not overreacting is often the most sensible thing to do.
I think Honda value wins far more than podiums, quite understandably, bit equally value a reliability reputation.
This puts them in a position of not wanting to turn the engine up to 10 for reliability and losing a little from the race position.

This is straight forward in some races, we are not going to catch Merc, so go fro reliable over strong.
Then we get some outlayers as we have had and it comes to the frying pan or the fire.
Had we turned the engine up last time, we would have been in with a chance, had we not turned it up this time we would have been there at the end and had a chance. Damned if you do-Damned if you don't
they give importance to reliability maybe more than needed. probably because of McLaren years and because of why Redbull had problems with Renault.
They were aiming mercedes level this year if not first part of season, with spec 2.0. But mercedes came up more performance. Infact there is nothing wrong there but unexpected development of a rival.
2 DNFs say you are wrong
nah pop no style

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JordanMugen
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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etusch wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:13 am
They were aiming mercedes level this year if not first part of season, with spec 2.0. But mercedes came up more performance. Infact there is nothing wrong there but unexpected development of a rival.
Did both Red Bull and Renault do the same underestimation for the 2014 season, or only Renault? :?:

How did the RB10 chassis compare to Mercedes W05 chassis -- superior, on par, or inferior? :?:

Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:15 am
2 DNFs say you are wrong
A minor sensor issue -- unfortunate to lose points, but not a big deal.

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etusch
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:15 am
etusch wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:13 am
They were aiming mercedes level this year if not first part of season, with spec 2.0. But mercedes came up more performance. Infact there is nothing wrong there but unexpected development of a rival.
Did both Red Bull and Renault do the same underestimation for the 2014 season, or only Renault? :?:

How did the RB10 chassis compared to Mercedes W05 chassis -- superior, on par, or inferior? :?:
I am talking Pu wise. But it can said for chassis too. Mercedes started full ready to season Redbull started like we used to see. They are going well but season is too tight
Last edited by etusch on Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Mudflap
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:15 am
Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:15 am
2 DNFs say you are wrong
A minor sensor issue -- unfortunate to lose points, but not a big deal.
I think it is all just speculation at this point.
The fact is they had 2 consecutive DNFs. Minor issues or not, that's almost a quarter of the races so far lost due to engine reliability and a third lost due to overall reliability.
nah pop no style

nzjrs
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:21 am
JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:15 am
Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:15 am
2 DNFs say you are wrong
A minor sensor issue -- unfortunate to lose points, but not a big deal.
I think it is all just speculation at this point.
The fact is they had 2 consecutive DNFs. Minor issues or not, that's almost a quarter of the races so far lost due to engine reliability and a third lost due to overall reliability.
Indeed.

What's also amazing is that (I think i saw it on reddit) their free practice reliability is great. I can't fathom how they sysyematically get two consecutive raceday DNFs!

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Wouter
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:15 am
etusch wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:13 am
they give importance to reliability maybe more than needed. probably because of McLaren years and because of why Redbull had problems with Renault.
They were aiming mercedes level this year if not first part of season, with spec 2.0. But mercedes came up more performance. Infact there is nothing wrong there but unexpected development of a rival.
.
2 DNFs say you are wrong
The DNFs are due to a fault in the ECU. That is a part coming from McLaren Applied. So thats no fault of Honda.

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Mudflap
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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nzjrs wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:24 am
Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:21 am
JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:15 am



A minor sensor issue -- unfortunate to lose points, but not a big deal.
I think it is all just speculation at this point.
The fact is they had 2 consecutive DNFs. Minor issues or not, that's almost a quarter of the races so far lost due to engine reliability and a third lost due to overall reliability.
Indeed.

What's also amazing is that (I think i saw it on reddit) their free practice reliability is great. I can't fathom how they sysyematically get two consecutive raceday DNFs!
I speculated on the engine forum this might be due to heatsoak on the grid. This is not replicated at any point during free practice.

It is definitely odd.
nah pop no style

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Mudflap
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Wouter wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:25 am
Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:15 am
etusch wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:13 am
they give importance to reliability maybe more than needed. probably because of McLaren years and because of why Redbull had problems with Renault.
They were aiming mercedes level this year if not first part of season, with spec 2.0. But mercedes came up more performance. Infact there is nothing wrong there but unexpected development of a rival.
.
2 DNFs say you are wrong
The DNFs are due to a fault in the ECU. That is a part coming from McLaren Applied. So thats no fault of Honda.
Where did you get that from ?
Should be an easy fix, just swap the ECU, don't think there are any restrictions on that.
nah pop no style

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Moore77
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Max is losing his patience with these PU issues.

https://www.wheels24.co.za/FormulaOne/v ... s-20200914
"It seems that it was the same problem as last week in Monza," the Red Bull driver told Ziggo Sport.

"The start was good, but when I went full throttle, I had that problem again. I could already feel it on the way to the grid."

When told that his actual retirement was caused by the crash, Verstappen responded: "That's what you get when you end up in situations like that. I would have dropped out anyway."

He stopped short of pointing the finger directly at Honda, but admitted: "It is not normal for it to happen two races in a row. At the moment I'm sick of it. It doesn't matter that much to me anymore."

Indeed, with Lewis Hamilton winning again, Verstappen's points deficit to the lead Mercedes is now 80 points.
Gangdom: Pom, Tom, Loverboy, Boomer.

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etusch
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:21 am
JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:15 am
Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:15 am
2 DNFs say you are wrong
A minor sensor issue -- unfortunate to lose points, but not a big deal.
I think it is all just speculation at this point.
The fact is they had 2 consecutive DNFs. Minor issues or not, that's almost a quarter of the races so far lost due to engine reliability and a third lost due to overall reliability.
when you think that way ( it is not wrong) they were dnf and at least they lost podium every time. But in the other hand they were not big issues of course because they can use that pu still. Maybe back to back dnf is because of this usage.

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Wouter
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:29 am
Wouter wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:25 am
Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:15 am

.
2 DNFs say you are wrong
The DNFs are due to a fault in the ECU. That is a part coming from McLaren Applied. So thats no fault of Honda.
Where did you get that from ?
Should be an easy fix, just swap the ECU, don't think there are any restrictions on that.
I don't think that's an easy fix. One will first have to know what is causing the problem in the ECU.
It could also be in the cabling. Maybe an outside disturbance?
A new ECU does not guarantee that the problem will be resolved.
It could be, but it is not certain. If it was that simple, they would have done it before last weekend.
Last edited by Wouter on Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Moore77
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Wouter wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:25 am
Mudflap wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:15 am
etusch wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:13 am
they give importance to reliability maybe more than needed. probably because of McLaren years and because of why Redbull had problems with Renault.
They were aiming mercedes level this year if not first part of season, with spec 2.0. But mercedes came up more performance. Infact there is nothing wrong there but unexpected development of a rival.
.
2 DNFs say you are wrong
The DNFs are due to a fault in the ECU. That is a part coming from McLaren Applied. So thats no fault of Honda.
https://the-race.com/formula-1/verstapp ... all-honda/
VERSTAPPEN ENGINE ISSUE ‘NOT SMALL’ – HONDA
Honda says Max Verstappen’s engine problem at the start of the Tuscan Grand Prix was “not small” and the big impact that then wiped him out completed a “very bad situation”.

“We’re now investigating the cause of the issue,” Tanabe said.

“At the moment I cannot tell you if we could continue, or we had to retire.

“But the issue is not small. The impact was big. So, it was a very bad situation.”

Honda will conduct a physical investigation of the engine itself while its R&D department in Sakura, Japan, has already started to analyse the race data.

Tanabe said “we haven’t decided the plan” for what happens next. Honda will first need to assess the cause and what damage has been done.
Gangdom: Pom, Tom, Loverboy, Boomer.

KelsO
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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If this is true, then it throws me into a stupor. The practice of replacing engineers in such a complex area as construction, tuning, testing of modern power units is unacceptable.
https://www.autobild.de/artikel/formel- ... 19853.html
The frustration is so deep that Red Bull's engine partner Honda is already getting its fat. Verstappen had the same engine problems twice in a row, he cursed publicly. "That is unacceptable." One thing is clear: the honeymoon with Honda is over, the tone is getting rougher. Only Red Bull motorsport chief adviser Helmut Marko remains (still) calm. "Honda has made progress, but Mercedes is still superior in the area of batteries. We have to start now." Marko explains the two engine problems at ABMS as follows: "Honda has exchanged engineers. Perhaps that is why there were the unexpected difficulties."
Last edited by KelsO on Wed Sep 16, 2020 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.