Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Greg Locock
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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That's an interesting point.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Still far from good range, but as the guy in the video says at the end, it really is an electric supersport bike, something unconceivable few years ago =D>

J.A.W.
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:15 pm
Still far from good range, but as the guy in the video says at the end, it really is an electric supersport bike, something unconceivable few years ago =D>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJj_h_enmmY
Thanks, but no thanks, its just a bit too much of an expensive gimmick, as yet.

For power-density uses like a sportsbike, batteries are still too heavy/bulky/range-limited,
& that awful 'kitchen appliance' whining noise is a deal breaker too (well, for me, anyhow).
"Its the aim of existence to offer resistance to the flow of time": P. Shelley.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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J.A.W. wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:05 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:15 pm
Still far from good range, but as the guy in the video says at the end, it really is an electric supersport bike, something unconceivable few years ago =D>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJj_h_enmmY
Thanks, but no thanks, its just a bit too much of an expensive gimmick, as yet.
Obviously, it´s the very first ever. But this shows the inflexion point of EV finally debunking ICEs is getting closer and closer

J.A.W. wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:05 am

For power-density uses like a sportsbike, batteries are still too heavy/bulky/range-limited,
& that awful 'kitchen appliance' whining noise is a deal breaker too (well, for me, anyhow).
No, the problem is not power density, power density is one of the few aspects where current batteries are ok, it´s energy density and durability what needs to be improved, but power density is more than enough. You can extract loads of power from current batteries, but then the battery will be empty in no time so none needs a battery with very high power density.

Better power density I know are Lipos I use for racing drones, you can deplete them is less than 2 minutes because of an awesome power density wich allows more than 30C average discharges with higher than 100C peaks. But no car manufacturer wants or need that high power density, what they need is higher energy density and longer durability so they don´t need to crop the real capacity to improve durability. They don´t even use the best available batteries power density wise because that´s not a limiting factor

J.A.W.
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Andres125sx wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:38 am
J.A.W. wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:05 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 6:15 pm
Still far from good range, but as the guy in the video says at the end, it really is an electric supersport bike, something unconceivable few years ago =D>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJj_h_enmmY
Thanks, but no thanks, its just a bit too much of an expensive gimmick, as yet.
Obviously, it´s the very first ever. But this shows the inflexion point of EV finally debunking ICEs is getting closer and closer

J.A.W. wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:05 am

For power-density uses like a sportsbike, batteries are still too heavy/bulky/range-limited,
& that awful 'kitchen appliance' whining noise is a deal breaker too (well, for me, anyhow).
No, the problem is not power density, power density is one of the few aspects where current batteries are ok, it´s energy density and durability what needs to be improved, but power density is more than enough. You can extract loads of power from current batteries, but then the battery will be empty in no time so none needs a battery with very high power density.

Better power density I know are Lipos I use for racing drones, you can deplete them is less than 2 minutes because of an awesome power density wich allows more than 30C average discharges with higher than 100C peaks. But no car manufacturer wants or need that high power density, what they need is higher energy density and longer durability so they don´t need to crop the real capacity to improve durability. They don´t even use the best available batteries power density wise because that´s not a limiting factor
No, your semantics won't fly, since batteries don't get lighter in % of O/A weight,
as they run down, unlike a tank of dino-juice..
"Its the aim of existence to offer resistance to the flow of time": P. Shelley.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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J.A.W. wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:02 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:38 am
J.A.W. wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:05 am


Thanks, but no thanks, its just a bit too much of an expensive gimmick, as yet.
Obviously, it´s the very first ever. But this shows the inflexion point of EV finally debunking ICEs is getting closer and closer

J.A.W. wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:05 am

For power-density uses like a sportsbike, batteries are still too heavy/bulky/range-limited,
& that awful 'kitchen appliance' whining noise is a deal breaker too (well, for me, anyhow).
No, the problem is not power density, power density is one of the few aspects where current batteries are ok, it´s energy density and durability what needs to be improved, but power density is more than enough. You can extract loads of power from current batteries, but then the battery will be empty in no time so none needs a battery with very high power density.

Better power density I know are Lipos I use for racing drones, you can deplete them is less than 2 minutes because of an awesome power density wich allows more than 30C average discharges with higher than 100C peaks. But no car manufacturer wants or need that high power density, what they need is higher energy density and longer durability so they don´t need to crop the real capacity to improve durability. They don´t even use the best available batteries power density wise because that´s not a limiting factor
No, your semantics won't fly, since batteries don't get lighter in % of O/A weight,
as they run down, unlike a tank of dino-juice..
Semantics? ...personal stuff removed... Power density and energy density are the two main characteristics of a battery, ...personal stuff removed...

J.A.W.
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Andres125sx wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:35 am
J.A.W. wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:02 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:38 am


Obviously, it´s the very first ever. But this shows the inflexion point of EV finally debunking ICEs is getting closer and closer




No, the problem is not power density, power density is one of the few aspects where current batteries are ok, it´s energy density and durability what needs to be improved, but power density is more than enough. You can extract loads of power from current batteries, but then the battery will be empty in no time so none needs a battery with very high power density.

Better power density I know are Lipos I use for racing drones, you can deplete them is less than 2 minutes because of an awesome power density wich allows more than 30C average discharges with higher than 100C peaks. But no car manufacturer wants or need that high power density, what they need is higher energy density and longer durability so they don´t need to crop the real capacity to improve durability. They don´t even use the best available batteries power density wise because that´s not a limiting factor
No, your semantics won't fly, since batteries don't get lighter in % of O/A weight,
as they run down, unlike a tank of dino-juice..
Semantics? You know something about batteries? Power densitiy and energy density are the two main characteristics of a battery, if you don´t know this simple fact a bit of humility to learn would be great, specially on a technical forum like this, instead of this characteristic arrogance of your posts #-o
...personal stuff removed... do see below:



Another issue is, for a motorcycle, the O/A mass % by weight of fuel-energy is a significant proportion,
which is of course, a reduced load (with marked improvement in % overall weight), with hydrocarbons,
& even more so, as the fuel is expended, unlike with electrickery...
"Its the aim of existence to offer resistance to the flow of time": P. Shelley.

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Andres125sx
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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J.A.W. wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:13 am
Andres125sx wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:35 am
J.A.W. wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 9:02 am


No, your semantics won't fly, since batteries don't get lighter in % of O/A weight,
as they run down, unlike a tank of dino-juice..
Semantics? You know something about batteries? Power densitiy and energy density are the two main characteristics of a battery, if you don´t know this simple fact a bit of humility to learn would be great, specially on a technical forum like this, instead of this characteristic arrogance of your posts #-o
...personal stuff removed... do see below:



Another issue is, for a motorcycle, the O/A mass % by weight of fuel-energy is a significant proportion,
which is of course, a reduced load (with marked improvement in % overall weight), with hydrocarbons,
& even more so, as the fuel is expended, unlike with electrickery...
Hope with this video you finally learnt the difference between power density and energy density

Apart from that, I´ve just unsubscribed from Engineering Explained. I´ve always enjoyed his videos, but this one shows a repugnant bias towards ICEs

First of all, as a start for the video...
Why would manufacturers continue improving combustion engines?
The straightforward reply to that comment he receive frequently would be this link


Then he goes on. The part where I finally unsubscribed was the environement part.... when he does not even touch the environement part but analyse a simple marketing point of view :shock: . His argument is, since manufacturers sell a 10% of EV and a 90% of ICE, it´s more efficient to improve ICE. Yeah but, who said that percentage will remain in next years? If he´s really analysing the environmental point of view.... shouldn´t he at least mention the toxic substances and emissions?

Normally the ICE bias try to manipulate towards their favourite assuming emisions are limited to CO2, and compare those to EVs (and even so they loose the comparison). But as people should know, ICE emit a lot more harmful substances like NOx, CO and several cancerigen substances wich are thrown directly to our noses #-o but this guy goes a step further, he does not even mention emissions, his argument is, since they sell more ICE than EVs, it´s more efficient to continue improving ICE instead of EV. Great, then we should be moving around with horses yet, as it´s not worth to develop any new technology, if it´s new it´s obvious it´s a minority compared to the stablished one

But that can´t be a reason to not develop a new techonology, not for any person with a brain at least

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subcritical71
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Andres125sx wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:56 am

Apart from that, I´ve just unsubscribed from Engineering Explained. I´ve always enjoyed his videos, but this one shows a repugnant bias towards ICEs
While I will continue to subscribe, my thoughts exactly. When I saw this one come out I couldn't believe how biased it was, normally a pretty good channel.
Then he goes on. The part where I finally unsubscribed was the environement part.... when he does not even touch the environement part but analyse a simple marketing point of view :shock: . His argument is, since manufacturers sell a 10% of EV and a 90% of ICE, it´s more efficient to improve ICE. Yeah but, who said that percentage will remain in next years? If he´s really analysing the environmental point of view.... shouldn´t he at least mention the toxic substances and emissions?
Somebody should tell Tesla it makes more sense to improve their ICE tech! :roll:

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Big Tea
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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subcritical71 wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:48 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:56 am

Apart from that, I´ve just unsubscribed from Engineering Explained. I´ve always enjoyed his videos, but this one shows a repugnant bias towards ICEs
While I will continue to subscribe, my thoughts exactly. When I saw this one come out I couldn't believe how biased it was, normally a pretty good channel.
Then he goes on. The part where I finally unsubscribed was the environement part.... when he does not even touch the environement part but analyse a simple marketing point of view :shock: . His argument is, since manufacturers sell a 10% of EV and a 90% of ICE, it´s more efficient to improve ICE. Yeah but, who said that percentage will remain in next years? If he´s really analysing the environmental point of view.... shouldn´t he at least mention the toxic substances and emissions?
Somebody should tell Tesla it makes more sense to improve their ICE tech! :roll:
He actually drives a Tesla lol. Is that one quite old? I think it was a demonstration more than anything though. It helps with visualising.
We are sitting on the shoulders of giants so we can see more things than they can

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strad
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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I´ve always enjoyed his videos, but this one shows a repugnant bias towards ICEs
Sez the guy with no bias for EVs.
To achieve anything, you must be prepared to dabble on the boundary of disaster.”
Sir Stirling Moss

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djos
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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Big Tea wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:48 pm
subcritical71 wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 1:48 pm
Andres125sx wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:56 am

Apart from that, I´ve just unsubscribed from Engineering Explained. I´ve always enjoyed his videos, but this one shows a repugnant bias towards ICEs
While I will continue to subscribe, my thoughts exactly. When I saw this one come out I couldn't believe how biased it was, normally a pretty good channel.
Then he goes on. The part where I finally unsubscribed was the environement part.... when he does not even touch the environement part but analyse a simple marketing point of view :shock: . His argument is, since manufacturers sell a 10% of EV and a 90% of ICE, it´s more efficient to improve ICE. Yeah but, who said that percentage will remain in next years? If he´s really analysing the environmental point of view.... shouldn´t he at least mention the toxic substances and emissions?
Somebody should tell Tesla it makes more sense to improve their ICE tech! :roll:
He actually drives a Tesla lol. Is that one quite old? I think it was a demonstration more than anything though. It helps with visualising.
I thought it was a great video where he discussed the pro's and con's to each in great detail - I love both EV's and ICE powered cars and I thought it very balanced.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

King Six
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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I reckon we're in for the era of the expendable EV. People will lease EV's on the cheap, especially as Li-ion gets to dirt cheap levels, they'll be used for a few years and then be recycled.

Then there's the whole idea of self-driving cars, people might not even bother to own vehicles and just start to use uber-like services if it becomes reliable and convenient enough.

When your standard 64kWh battery costs virtually nothing then you'll see EV's everywhere. It might not be from an established manufacturer but nobody will care if the operating costs are so small and it is decent enough. Even if there isn't much improvement in energy density etc.. if the vehicles themselves (and operating costs) become cheap enough it might make more sense to just have multiple EV lorries stationed along a long distance route for example.

There will definitely be a noticeable shift in patterns of vehicle ownership and driving habits IMO.

Just get the cost down so that ICE is just completely unable to compete and that'll be game over. We'll be there soon enough, unless Governments actively work against it and start to subsidise ICE/fossil fuels to keep the EV at bay (no doubt some countries will do so).

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Big Tea
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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King Six wrote:
Mon Jul 20, 2020 9:33 pm
I reckon we're in for the era of the expendable EV. People will lease EV's on the cheap, especially as Li-ion gets to dirt cheap levels, they'll be used for a few years and then be recycled.

Then there's the whole idea of self-driving cars, people might not even bother to own vehicles and just start to use uber-like services if it becomes reliable and convenient enough.

When your standard 64kWh battery costs virtually nothing then you'll see EV's everywhere. It might not be from an established manufacturer but nobody will care if the operating costs are so small and it is decent enough. Even if there isn't much improvement in energy density etc.. if the vehicles themselves (and operating costs) become cheap enough it might make more sense to just have multiple EV lorries stationed along a long distance route for example.

There will definitely be a noticeable shift in patterns of vehicle ownership and driving habits IMO.

Just get the cost down so that ICE is just completely unable to compete and that'll be game over. We'll be there soon enough, unless Governments actively work against it and start to subsidise ICE/fossil fuels to keep the EV at bay (no doubt some countries will do so).
A while back, one of the French companies, think it was Renault, came out with a modular car. It was swappable between convertible and truck. Possibly this is a way to go. Start with a higher spec or commuter, then recondition and recycle as 'cheap transport' or taxi, refurbish and recycle a working vehicle maybe.
We are sitting on the shoulders of giants so we can see more things than they can

Brake Horse Power
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Re: Will Electric Vehicles Be Viable? When?

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So about trucks, Scania announced some BEV trucks, DAF (paccar daughter) announced a new BEV (200km range) and said not to rule out internal combustion engines. Maybe even an ICE in combination with hydrogen.
Mercedes just announced a BEV and long haul unit for 2025. This one is compressed or liquid H2.
As Europe aggressively revises its climate goals also the car and vehicle manufacturers need to further step up their effort.

https://www.electrive.com/2020/09/16/da ... -km-range/
Last edited by Brake Horse Power on Thu Sep 17, 2020 5:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.