Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Are Schumacher's WDC and Win records under threat of being eclipsed?

Will the 7 WDC record be broken?
6
3%
Will the 91 Victory record be broken?
44
26%
Neither record will be broken.
20
12%
Both records will be broken.
102
59%
 
Total votes: 172

Wass85
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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stick to the threads topic please.

It's quite clear Hamilton is now going to break Schumacher's records, what more is there to say?

e30ernest
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:51 am
e30ernest wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:32 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:06 am

If Michael had stayed instead of retiring a second time, Rosberg would be a multiple champion. People forget that Rosberg beat Schumacher 3 - 0 in their time together at Mercedes.
Yeah I agree with this. Schumacher at that point was not a match for Rosberg. Based on the points tally I did last time, Rosberg would have gotten 2014-2016. This is unless Schumacher was sandbagging because the car was not competitive, but I do think he was giving it full beans against Rosberg.
If he was sandbagging, it cost him a seat in a team that has dominated the sport like no other. In reality, there's no way he would sandbag though. He just didnt have it anymore and/or Rosberg was actually a very good driver.
I think it's a little bit of both. Schumacher probably couldn't adapt to that generation of cars and tires as quickly, and then he got paired with a strong team mate. The cars and tires at that time probably drove very differently to how Schumacher's cars did.

Wass85
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:51 am
e30ernest wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:32 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:06 am

If Michael had stayed instead of retiring a second time, Rosberg would be a multiple champion. People forget that Rosberg beat Schumacher 3 - 0 in their time together at Mercedes.
Yeah I agree with this. Schumacher at that point was not a match for Rosberg. Based on the points tally I did last time, Rosberg would have gotten 2014-2016. This is unless Schumacher was sandbagging because the car was not competitive, but I do think he was giving it full beans against Rosberg.
If he was sandbagging, it cost him a seat in a team that has dominated the sport like no other. In reality, there's no way he would sandbag though. He just didnt have it anymore and/or Rosberg was actually a very good driver.
It was quite evident he didn't have it anymore, the occasional show of brilliance wasn't enough to overcome his obvious shortfalls.

The man was clearly a shadow of his former self.

Wass85
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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e30ernest wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:55 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:51 am
e30ernest wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:32 am


Yeah I agree with this. Schumacher at that point was not a match for Rosberg. Based on the points tally I did last time, Rosberg would have gotten 2014-2016. This is unless Schumacher was sandbagging because the car was not competitive, but I do think he was giving it full beans against Rosberg.
If he was sandbagging, it cost him a seat in a team that has dominated the sport like no other. In reality, there's no way he would sandbag though. He just didnt have it anymore and/or Rosberg was actually a very good driver.
I think it's a little bit of both. Schumacher probably couldn't adapt to that generation of cars and tires as quickly, and then he got paired with a strong team mate. The cars and tires at that time probably drove very differently to how Schumacher's cars did.
Quite possible as I'm sure that he was closer in pace to Rosberg in 2012 than he was at any point of their partnership.

Still that doesn't change the fact that there's no way on earth you're in your physical prime at that age.

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NathanOlder
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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e30ernest wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:55 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:51 am
e30ernest wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:32 am


Yeah I agree with this. Schumacher at that point was not a match for Rosberg. Based on the points tally I did last time, Rosberg would have gotten 2014-2016. This is unless Schumacher was sandbagging because the car was not competitive, but I do think he was giving it full beans against Rosberg.
If he was sandbagging, it cost him a seat in a team that has dominated the sport like no other. In reality, there's no way he would sandbag though. He just didnt have it anymore and/or Rosberg was actually a very good driver.
I think it's a little bit of both. Schumacher probably couldn't adapt to that generation of cars and tires as quickly, and then he got paired with a strong team mate. The cars and tires at that time probably drove very differently to how Schumacher's cars did.
Yeah thats true, the older you are I guess the slower you become at reacting and fine tuning these changes. Be interesting to see how a 37yr old Hamilton adapts to the 2022 rule changes compared to the likes of Max, Charles , Lando and George.
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Wass85
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:59 am
e30ernest wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:55 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:51 am


If he was sandbagging, it cost him a seat in a team that has dominated the sport like no other. In reality, there's no way he would sandbag though. He just didnt have it anymore and/or Rosberg was actually a very good driver.
I think it's a little bit of both. Schumacher probably couldn't adapt to that generation of cars and tires as quickly, and then he got paired with a strong team mate. The cars and tires at that time probably drove very differently to how Schumacher's cars did.
Yeah thats true, the older you are I guess the slower you become at reacting and fine tuning these changes. Be interesting to see how a 37yr old Hamilton adapts to the 2022 rule changes compared to the likes of Max, Charles , Lando and George.
The difference is Hamilton won't have taken 3 years off.

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NathanOlder
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Wass85 wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:04 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:59 am
e30ernest wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:55 am


I think it's a little bit of both. Schumacher probably couldn't adapt to that generation of cars and tires as quickly, and then he got paired with a strong team mate. The cars and tires at that time probably drove very differently to how Schumacher's cars did.
Yeah thats true, the older you are I guess the slower you become at reacting and fine tuning these changes. Be interesting to see how a 37yr old Hamilton adapts to the 2022 rule changes compared to the likes of Max, Charles , Lando and George.
The difference is Hamilton won't have taken 3 years off.
Then you ask, do drivers ever recover from time off ? or do they use that excuse 3yrs running ? Kimi had 2yrs out, came back an won a race in his first year back .
GoLandoGo
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King George has arrived.

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Moore77
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:38 am
Moore77 wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:24 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:06 am

If Michael had stayed instead of retiring a second time, Rosberg would be a multiple champion. People forget that Rosberg beat Schumacher 3 - 0 in their time together at Mercedes.
Based on your past record of statements, wasn't Rosberg Schumacher's No.2? OR are those lies just a matter of convenience?
No, remember what he said in the past. Mercedes dont do the whole number 1 and 2 thing #-o Thats a Ferrari/Red Bull thing. If Mercedes dont do it now, why would they do it 10yrs ago ?
The Mercedes of the yore that you are talking about, was the same Ross Brawn that was at Ferrari! While I take Brawn's statement that Schumacher never had a contracted No.2 at Ferrari, just like I believe Schumacher didn't have a contracted No. 2 at Mercedes either. It was just that some people have been peddling these lies that Schumacher had contracted No. 2, even though Brawn had flatly denied it. But it's a matter of convenience for some.
Last edited by Moore77 on Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:48 am
Moore77 wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:57 am
So you are basing your argument that the decision wasn't dumb because, there was some discussion happened behind the closed door. Whereas I was saying it was dumb because it defied the conventional wisdom, when it actually happened.
So IF and thats a big if, Hamilton's move was 'dumb' what does that make Michaels move that he signed in 1995 ? He went from a team that won 3 Championships in 2yrs, to a team that won 2 races in 5 YEARS!!!!! I mean Ferrari won 1 race in 1995, Benetton won 11 races. You must be calling that the dumbest move of last century ?
Practically speaking, it was a dumb move too! Nobody in the right mind thought, Schumacher would do that. He left a winning team to take up an adventure! He could have stayed and won another title. Brawn, in one of his interviews mentioned that the Benetton of 1996, was a championship capable car in the hands of Schumacher. It was not like Hamilton's, frustrated driver leaving team situation.
NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:48 am
We fans know in reality it was a great move, Ferrari a bigger team just underachieving. Like Mercedes, I know they were a new team in 2010, but it was clear to see the size of the team, like Ferrari from 91-95 they were underachieving and just needed to put some pieces in to place to become the dominant force it did. Both teams built around arguably the best driver of their generation. Everyone can see that, but you just cant say/accept that Lewis was good enough to see this. You have to stick to it being a fluke! The thread continues in an argument simply because you have to disagree with multiple people yet again.
Ferrari was a big team that didn't make an impact even with Mansell and Prost! It was just the sheer brilliance of Schumacher to safe guard a struggling Todt, bring in Brawn and Byrne, which then became a success machine.

A few pages back, I have also posted Brawn, Shovlin and Toto's statements from 2014 that highlight, how much they owed Schumacher for their 2014 championship success. Even before Hamilton put a step in Mercedes, the elements were put in place. Brawn hired Bell, WIllis, Elliott and Aldo by 2011/12, which was termed as "too many cooks" back then. At the same time, Cowell was handed over the reigns at HPP. They sacked Loic Bigois, who used to be their Aero Chief as the car was a dog in 2012. There were share holders calling for Daimler to get out of F1.

Hamilton, possibly have had no obvious reason other than a frustration at McLaren, lack of opportunity at RB and the booty offer at Mercedes to make his decision. There was no 2014 PU running on dyno for Hamilton to have seen it's performance. Even by some miracle if it was, there was no way to know how good it was going to be in relation to competition. The new chassis CHIEFS were just finding their feet to even think of 2014 car design. What else could he have seen?
Last edited by Moore77 on Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Wass85
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:14 am
Wass85 wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:04 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:59 am


Yeah thats true, the older you are I guess the slower you become at reacting and fine tuning these changes. Be interesting to see how a 37yr old Hamilton adapts to the 2022 rule changes compared to the likes of Max, Charles , Lando and George.
The difference is Hamilton won't have taken 3 years off.
Then you ask, do drivers ever recover from time off ? or do they use that excuse 3yrs running ? Kimi had 2yrs out, came back an won a race in his first year back .
Have you ever considered that maybe Kimi had a better car in his return season?

Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Wass85 wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:56 am
It was quite evident he didn't have it anymore, the occasional show of brilliance wasn't enough to overcome his obvious shortfalls.

The man was clearly a shadow of his former self.
The elephant in the room is that it's possible that Schumacher found himself back in a paddock with much more mature talent around than when he'd left it. That season, Schumacher ended the season with 4 world champions, a future world champion and two title runners up ahead of him. That was the season, let us remember, where the title lead swapped a record number of times over the season. There was a lot of talent on the grid at the time. In his back-to-back years, Michael was the class of the field, I don't think anyone would disagree. But on his return, the field was full of class. That his team mate beat him 3-0 is quite a surprise. Most would have expected a closer fight than that. But then Rosberg had always been known to be quick, he just often had a car that couldn't take him further.
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Wass85
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:09 am
Wass85 wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:56 am
It was quite evident he didn't have it anymore, the occasional show of brilliance wasn't enough to overcome his obvious shortfalls.

The man was clearly a shadow of his former self.
The elephant in the room is that it's possible that Schumacher found himself back in a paddock with much more mature talent around than when he'd left it. That season, Schumacher ended the season with 4 world champions, a future world champion and two title runners up ahead of him. That was the season, let us remember, where the title lead swapped a record number of times over the season. There was a lot of talent on the grid at the time. In his back-to-back years, Michael was the class of the field, I don't think anyone would disagree. But on his return, the field was full of class. That his team mate beat him 3-0 is quite a surprise. Most would have expected a closer fight than that. But then Rosberg had always been known to be quick, he just often had a car that couldn't take him further.
It's the equivalent of Hamilton retiring in 2018 and coming back with the new regulation changes and going against George Russell.

e30ernest
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Wass85 wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:34 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:09 am
Wass85 wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:56 am
It was quite evident he didn't have it anymore, the occasional show of brilliance wasn't enough to overcome his obvious shortfalls.

The man was clearly a shadow of his former self.
The elephant in the room is that it's possible that Schumacher found himself back in a paddock with much more mature talent around than when he'd left it. That season, Schumacher ended the season with 4 world champions, a future world champion and two title runners up ahead of him. That was the season, let us remember, where the title lead swapped a record number of times over the season. There was a lot of talent on the grid at the time. In his back-to-back years, Michael was the class of the field, I don't think anyone would disagree. But on his return, the field was full of class. That his team mate beat him 3-0 is quite a surprise. Most would have expected a closer fight than that. But then Rosberg had always been known to be quick, he just often had a car that couldn't take him further.
It's the equivalent of Hamilton retiring in 2018 and coming back with the new regulation changes and going against George Russell.
Maybe.

I've said before that I think every generation of F1 driver is inherently better than the previous. For example, the current crop of drivers would be more fit than the drivers of the 80's. They'd also benefit from better training (better physios), better mental health (sports psychologists), better nutrition and most of them have started driving at a much earlier age (which probably wires their brains differently too) so they have better training as well.

That's not to put the accomplishments of past drivers to shade though. I still think they are extraordinarily skilled for their time. But I think we are just producing better athletes as we learn more about ourselves and technology.

I think this holds true for almost all sports too.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Wass85 wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:34 am

It's the equivalent of Hamilton retiring in 2018 and coming back with the new regulation changes and going against George Russell.
That's the thing - there isn't a current equivalent. 2010 was a rare year where there was a lot of proven talent (7 titles (Vettel x3, Alonso x2, Hamilton x1, Button x1, plus one to come (Rosberg), a former title runner up (Massa) and Mark Webber who came 3rd 3 times) leading the table.

Although Felipe and Nico were well behind the others in the 2010 title race, they both scored twice the points that Michael did.

2010 was a rare year because all of the proven talent had machinery that could do the job, with the RedBull being marginally the best. Alonso, particularly, drove brilliantly that year, although all of the guys at the front had some excellent drives that year.

The equivalent would be Hamilton coming back to a midfield team in a grid where Max, Leclerc, Russell and Norris (to pick four current young guns) had all won titles and were fighting each other for the title. You'd get the occasional moment of "ah, yes, I remember he was the best of his day" but mostly you'd wonder why he was bothering.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Wass85
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Re: Will Schumacher's Race Win and WDC records be broken?

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:57 am
Wass85 wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:34 am

It's the equivalent of Hamilton retiring in 2018 and coming back with the new regulation changes and going against George Russell.
That's the thing - there isn't a current equivalent. 2010 was a rare year where there was a lot of proven talent (7 titles (Vettel x3, Alonso x2, Hamilton x1, Button x1, plus one to come (Rosberg), a former title runner up (Massa) and Mark Webber who came 3rd 3 times) leading the table.

Although Felipe and Nico were well behind the others in the 2010 title race, they both scored twice the points that Michael did.

2010 was a rare year because all of the proven talent had machinery that could do the job, with the RedBull being marginally the best. Alonso, particularly, drove brilliantly that year, although all of the guys at the front had some excellent drives that year.

The equivalent would be Hamilton coming back to a midfield team in a grid where Max, Leclerc, Russell and Norris (to pick four current young guns) had all won titles and were fighting each other for the title. You'd get the occasional moment of "ah, yes, I remember he was the best of his day" but mostly you'd wonder why he was bothering.
OK but you have the fact that he would be partnered alongside a young charger who would go on to win a world title.